Good News from the Netherlands

1 October, 2010 - 10:32

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-2 points

Fantastic stuff, will Israel realise the occupation now has a price tag?

1 October, 2010 - 10:56

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3 points

More Jew hatred.

1. The settlements aren't illegal.
2. The land is not palestinian - never was, at any time, ever. So why do you use the term "Occupied Palestinian Territory" - and why do you use capital letters?

1 October, 2010 - 10:56

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5 points

Can you tell me which other countries are being boycotted - a list please.

1 October, 2010 - 11:04

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4 points

Israeli communities take up about 2% of Judea and Samaria, not 40%. That is an outright lie.

East Jerusalem is not a settlement, Jerusalem is the united capital of Israel. Your figures are also a lie.

Doesn't it concern you that the only way you can score these pathetic little victories is by lies and intimidation? I mean who do you honestly think cares outside your own extremist circles?

1 October, 2010 - 11:26

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0 points

Come on Joe ISm you wanted debate, let's hear when this land was Palestinian.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68C52E20100913

1 October, 2010 - 11:56

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-1 points

Sorry been busy at work this morning. My thoughts so far;

The land is Palestinian as Palestinians live there, and have for hundreds of years. Century after century went by after the expulsion of the Jews from Palestine by the Romans and they were then in that entire time. They may not have developed a western style national conciousness until 100 years ago or so, a more localised version of nationalism was present before then, but they lived on the land, it was their land.

The settlements are illegal, that is the position of the pretty much everybody apart from Israel, there can be no more debate on this since the highest court in the world ruled them illegal.

The 2% figure in nonsense, see the UN reports and maps here;

http://www.ochaopt.org/

Israel is the only state in the world that regards Jerusalem as its capital, even the US doesn't recognise this. If Britain decided to annex Paris and declare it as its capital it wouldn't make it so.

Isca Stieglitz

1 October, 2010 - 11:57

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0 points

These are just a few of the sites gathered in my 'research' folder, some old, so have tried to find up to date pages.

My books include those by Margolis, Gilbert, Avneri, Nimr, Ellis et al. A virtual and hardcopy library. Above all, all strands, all views.

I have over, too many, years formed an opinion/s, but it is a quagmire to wade through and an impossible task to read and hear everything. My own experiences in I-P, Judea/Samaria/West Bank, have naturally formed a big part of my views.

I am still debating with myself if to write about my views more fully or not. I need to find the courage I think. One thing is for sure, as I've said before, all the I-P issues are argued from the colloquial, academic, philosophic, religious and legal angles and more.

I'm stating the obvious of course.

http://emetnews.org/analysis/are_settlements_illegal.php

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/08/2009824145130254273...

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_current_settlements.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_and_Samaria_Area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

http://www.peaceforourtime.org.uk/page117.html

http://www.examiner.com/middle-eastern-policy-in-los-angeles/why-the-wes...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3822282,00.html

http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=51

Harvey

1 October, 2010 - 12:03

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5 points

I would imagine these civic dignataries would do anything to pander to the increasingly militant tendency within their Muslim population .After all who wants to be constantly looking over their shoulder wondering if he will be the next to get a Fatwah pinned through his heart.

Much easier instead to castigate and delgitimise a soft target such as Israel rather then risk the wrath of those who are at the source and are responsible for virtually every terrorist act committed across every continent.

Israel is but a scapegoat for this abject moral cowardice on the part of the West and is the canary in the toxic coalmine .

There were no settlements and no Israeli presence on the West Bank between 1948 and 1967 so what was the excuse for not declaring a Palestinian state during those years and why the sudden change of heart now.

Purely a rhetorical question as it is patently obvious that in 67, Palestinian aspirations to a state encompassing all of Israel took a massive step backwards . The objective now is to return ,for the time being to the starting line although of course Hamas have made it clear that they will have no part in an interim goal prefering to go straight to the finishing line.
The settlement issue is a red herring and accounts for all the willing dupes like you Max who see it as the source of the problem.

The real problem is Arab /Muslim / Palestinian refusal to one degree or another to countenance the presence of a Jewish state in their midst settlementsor no settlements.

yankeeuxb

1 October, 2010 - 13:55

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-3 points

There is, of course, no evidence that the Dutch authorities have cancelled the visit of these Mayors to 'pander to the increasingly militant tendency within their Muslim population.'

To demand that Palestinians are freed from an oppressive occupation is hardly a militant opinion after all. It is shared by everyone from the US President to Ed Miliband to David 'Prison Camp' Cameron to the UN to the Church to Amnesty International, the International Committee of the Red Cross - oh, the list is endless really.

And anyway, if the majority opinion says that the occupation is wrong then that's democracy.
Even today's poll - 'should the settlement Freeze continue?' is a majority for the 'yes' vote. That is a positive result (in concord with the Dutch opinion)and is indicative that people are aware that the settlements are illegal and a block to peace. Perhaps those that clicked the 'yes' button are pandering 'to the increasingly militant tendency within their Muslim population.'

1 October, 2010 - 15:08

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2 points

yankeeuxb, democracy/ Like the Palestinian Authority who arrest dissenters and torture them, like Hamas who throws its rivals off rooftops, like Iran who guns down demonstrators, then tortures the rest in prison, including mass rape? Like Syria, which is killing hundreds as we speak to utter silence from Jew haters like you?

Yes, lecture us about democracy.

You complete bastard.

1 October, 2010 - 15:13

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1 point

<3 Amber

1 October, 2010 - 15:16

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3 points

No Joe ISM, revisionist Jew hating garbage.

The Palestinians did not develop a national consciousness until 1967, after the Six Day War. Hence you will find no evidence of calls for an independent Palestinian Arab state when Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria between 1948-67. All Jews on those lands were ethniocally cleansed, including from Jerusalem. The Jordanians then forbade Jews access to the holiest Jewish site in the world, and went about a systematic policy of destroying the ancient synagogues in Jerusalem. They then vandalised the Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives, using the gravestones for roads. Palestinian Arabs did not live on all this land, and many had arrived very recently. Little do you know about the mass immigration of Arabs from Egypt and Syria, as a direct consequence of Jewish immigration (the Jews developed the land and bought work opportunities with them). A Palestinian refugee is defined as someone who had lived for TWO years in British mandate Palestine, and, incredibly, all their descendants (the Palestinians are the only ones given hereditary refugee status by the Israel hating UN - the same does not apply to any other refugees). The land the Jews settled at that time (before 1948) was bought by Jews. Some Jews had never left.

But carry on believing your fantasies which fuel your ignorant hatred.

1 October, 2010 - 15:19

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6 points

Joe ISM, you really aren't very bright. You compare the Jews' feelings for Jerusalem (300 years of history, praying three times a day towards Jerusalem, the centrality of Jerusalem in the Torah, the fact that it was holy to Jews centuries before anyone else) with the UK's feelings for Paris.

Oh please...we're not at secondary school debating society now. You'll need to raise your game to keep up.

1 October, 2010 - 15:21

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4 points

It is very revealing to learn that this is what members of the ISM think - they are clueless.

1 October, 2010 - 15:26

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3 points

The USA has never regarded the settlements as "illegal"

Inconvenient for your view Joe ("that is the position of the pretty much everybody apart from Israel") which is why you ignore it.

Typical Leftist mentality: if a fact doesn't fit the prejudice, ignore it.

They are a disgrace.

1 October, 2010 - 15:32

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-4 points

I assume your source for all of this is Joan Peters discredited forgery From Time Immemorial?

1 October, 2010 - 15:40

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-2 points

"The USA has never regarded the settlements as "illegal"

yes but everyone else does; the EU, the ICJ, the UN plus the vast majority of the world sovereign states;

votes in the UN on the legality of settlements;

2006 - For (motion that settlemenst are illegal) 162, against 8, 10 abstentions
2007 - For 165, against 7, 5 abstentions
2008 - For 171, against 6, 2 abstentions
2009 - For 166, against 6, 3 abstentions

1 October, 2010 - 15:44

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-4 points

and amber you miss the central point that whatever Jewish feelings towards Jerusalem are, NOBODY recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and states need recogniton to become legitimate, therefore it isn't Israel's capital.

1 October, 2010 - 16:26

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5 points

Joe ISM, was your question addressed to me?

Nobody recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital - I couldn't care less. 60 years ago no one recognized that 6 million Jews were being murdered - being in a minority of one does not make you automatically wrong. You need to stop being a sheep. And furthermore, no-one recognizes it as the capital of the Palestinian Arabs either.

So what does it prove?

1 October, 2010 - 16:27

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3 points

The central point which you overlook Joe ISM is that the land you claim as Arab never was, either as part of an independent Arab entity, orivately owned.

1 October, 2010 - 16:27

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3 points

privately owned.

1 October, 2010 - 16:40

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2 points

So what Joe? The UN General Assembly is dominated by the Islamic and African states.

And those votes were far from unanimous

1 October, 2010 - 16:53

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-2 points

165 - 7, 171 - 6, 166 - 6, are you mad? And do I detect some racism against Africa?

1 October, 2010 - 16:56

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-2 points

so your saying that because there has never been an official independent state called Palestine the people that live there have no right to the land? Seems a bit like the mindset of a colonialist

1 October, 2010 - 17:02

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3 points

Stop turning it around Joe ISM, you snake.

Your argument was that Israel, i.e. Jews, have no right to live there. You based this on the fact that they are occupying "Palestinian land". When it was pointed out that there was never any such thing as "Palestinian land" - ever - you now accuse people of denying Palestinians the right to live there.

The only person denying anyone's right to live anywhere is YOU.

Luckily anyone can read through this thread and see what a hypocrite, liar, and fraud you are.

Jon_i_Cohen

1 October, 2010 - 17:02

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3 points

This is the GOOD NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS that you really meant to write about:-

Jordan is Palestine
The Dutch politician Geert Wilders has hit the bullseye:

‘Jordan is Palestine,’ said Wilders, who heads the third-largest party in Holland. ‘Changing its name to Palestine will end the conflict in the Middle East and provide the Palestinians with an alternate homeland...There has been an independent Palestinian state since 1946, and it is the kingdom of Jordan.’ Wilders also called on the Dutch government to refer to Jordan as Palestine and move its embassy to Jerusalem.

Wilders has spoken the big inconvenient truth. As a result, it is inevitably being dismissed as merely what ‘the right’ regularly says. So of course it's untrue, on the grounds that, by definition, everything ‘the right’ says is untrue. Yadda yadda.

But it is not untrue. It is correct. Anyone familiar with the history knows it is correct. Immediately after World War One, Palestine consisted of what is now Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The great powers dividing up the region decided that Britain should be given a mandate to administer Palestine and restore within it the historic Jewish national home. Within a couple of years, however, Winston Churchill, for reasons of realpolitik, gave away three quarters of Palestine to the Hashemite dynasty to found (Trans)Jordan (leaving all the rest to be settled by the Jews; but that’s another story).

So Jordan is indeed Palestine. As Camie Davis points out, the Arabs themselves repeatedly said so:

Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of the West Bank, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine...

‘We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.’ Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza' al-Majali, 23 August 1959

‘Palestine and Transjordan are one.’ King Abdullah, Arab League meeting in Cairo, 12 April 1948

‘Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.’ Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

‘Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.’ Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

'The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.' King Hussein 1981

Indeed, until 1970 the Palestine Liberation Organisation conducted terrorist operations against Jordan on the grounds that it was Palestine and the Hashemite minority was ruling the Palestinian majority. It was only after Jordan killed thousands of Palestinians in 'Black September' (and who in the west ever cared about that??) that Israel suddenly became the sole historic homeland’ of the Palestinians and Jordan was airbrushed out of the picture -- and the fabrication of ‘Palestinianism’ became the accepted truth.

But as 'Palestinian' politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 (hat tip: Israel Matzav):

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

It is the west’s refusal to acknowledge this connection, and wholly to misrepresent instead both the history of the region and the causes of the conflict in the Middle East, which is one of the principal reasons why that murderous impasse continues to this day.

There can be no peace without justice; and there can be no justice without truth. Wilders has told the truth. With the west’s collective brain twisted beyond reason by lies, he will of course be vilified and dismissed for doing so. The bigger the truth, the greater the vilification and the more ‘right-wing’ the truth-teller becomes in order to neutralise his challenge to the lies.

That’s why the bad guys are winning

Here is the link
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6094074/jordan-is-palestine.t...

Harvey

1 October, 2010 - 17:09

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5 points

Amber

Re ISM

This so called NGO purports to be an a political humanitarian organisation .The reality is that it is closely aligned to the various proscribed terrorist militia. For example ,at the height of the Intifada ,Israels policy was to bulldoze the homes of homicide bombers .Invariably ,ISM operatives would be in place to form a cordon around the house within minutes of the bombing and well before the IDF arrived.This advance knowledge could only be possible through a close affiliation to the terrorist entities.

The ISM use young idealistic individuals to carry out hazardous operations in what is effectively a war zone with barely adequate training.

It is a win win situation for the ISM .If they can stop or hinder an IDF operation ,all well and good .If someone is killed in the process eg Tom Hurndall ,Rachel Corrie it becomes a propaganda scoop.

Several years ago I went to one of their screenings followed by a question and answer session.

I asked how come if the ISM was truly a humanitarian NGO ,why it did not see fit to place its operatives in restaurants ,shopping malls etc in Israel in order to afford Israelis equal measure of protection.

Naturally I did not receive an answer but I was asked to leave for being disruptive and escorted from the cinema by several of their goons.

Jon_i_Cohen

1 October, 2010 - 17:17

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2 points

In support of matt pryors earlier point

Jerusalem was re-united in 1967, after the 1967 Six Day War; and in 1980 The Knesset passed the Jerusalem Law which declared a "complete and united" Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Again, facts on the ground.

Poor old Joe, (ISM), living in a never, never land of fantasies.

1 October, 2010 - 17:23

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2 points

"And do I detect some racism against Africa?"

Being a leftwing mendacious Istrael-hating twister, you will allege "racism" all the time.

The fact that Africa is not a "race" is irrelevant for you

1 October, 2010 - 17:26

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2 points

Africa is a continent primarily made up of military dictatorships and serial human rights abusers. It is plagued by corruption, ineptitude and greed.

Is that racist Joe ISM?

1 October, 2010 - 17:29

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2 points

Harvey, thanks for the info - I didn't know that about this awful organization - what a disgusting bunch of lowlifes.

Matt, well said. It is indeed ISM who is denying people the right to live somewhere - yet another instance of his skewed "logic".

1 October, 2010 - 17:30

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2 points

ISM, Africa isn't a race, rather like your previous blundering contention that Shiites are a race.

Did you finish school?

1 October, 2010 - 17:31

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2 points

ISM, how many of those voting were liberal democracies? You will find the majority were assorted despots, tyrannies, dictatorships and police states.

The UN - always a great moral bastion (!)

1 October, 2010 - 18:00

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2 points

ISM is a Cult

2 October, 2010 - 09:58

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2 points

ISM, what garbage - you really are a fool. YOU are the racist who would deny Jewish people the right to live in Judea and Samaria - isn't that racist? The ISM is an apologist group for terrorism against Jews, and has an obsessive hatred of the Jewish state - and incites further htared. It has nothing to do with conflict resolution - it is a hate organization. Of course, you ignore the substance of the points put to you, and simply spout slogans which you didn't come up with yourself - saves you thinking. It is the exclusive attacks on Israel, and the whitewashing af anti-Jewish violence and antisemitism rife in Palestinian and wider Arab society, which marks you out as a classic Jew hater.

Racist scumbag.