Democracy? a step too far

So what, are you suggesting that we should do away with democracy altogether?

I don't see what the problem is, if the group have already stated the protest will be peaceful.

I can think of few things more outrageously offensive than Islam4UK's threatened action; if they want to protest' let them do so elsewhere. These people act virtually as Fifth Columnists.
Let's hope the "moderate Muslims" in this country will tell them that it's a step too far.
If they descend on WB, people should ignore them, and the media should as well.

Yvetta and JIC, you claim not to support the BNP, so why do you use the fascists' language?

This Conservative Party member is not aware that she's using any language resembling that of the islamofascists, Moshe. ;~)

Fifth columnists? That's the language of fascists.

Trojan Horse is the language of Grecian democrats ;~)

The only Trojan Horses here are those who use the language of the BNP while claiming to be democrats.

Yvetta,
Pay no attention to moshetzarfati2.
When Islam4UK marches through Wootton Bassett in support of the Taliban, our moshetzarfati2 will be leading them.

More bullyboy abuse, this time from a Canadian megaphone. I am honoured.

For Moshe, though I can't find it (just sent the link by someone):

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Wootten/

Yvetta, any idiot can place a petition on Number 10's website -- and indeed many have.

Well, yes ... so I see. I'm amused by the "rejected" petitions on the theme that Gordon must go - the reason for their rejection is that they mirror or overlap with similar petitions!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/8438915.stm

Seems the PM disgrees with you, Leigh-Ellis... Is he a 'fascist' too, Zarfarti?

"Gordon Brown said anything which families of dead or wounded troops could find offensive would be "completely inappropriate". "

This is nothing but a cheap publicity stunt by Andy Choudary. I doubt it will happen.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/07/31/the-jewels-of-advice-for-the-husb...

Shock Horror Hoff Man, Im sure there are many topics on which I would disagree with the prime minister....

Hoffman, unlike you, Yvetta and Jon-i-Cohen, the PM does not use the language of the BNP. And I think that DLE would agree with me and the PM that the march is completely inappropriate. But that's the price we pay for living in a democracy.

This is true, the march is somewhat insensitive but I wouldn't stop it....

'I may detest what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it' .. Friends of Voltaire, 1906

Same reason I thought the BNP needed to be on question time... Only by bringing them into the debate could their opinions be shown as ridiculous.

Moshe, since you lump robust Zionists with the BNP, I'd be interested in knowing whether you regard the language and aims of Islam4UK as fascist, and what you think of the online letter AC posted, calling on soldiers' families to convert to Islam to avoid "hell-fire".

Yvetta, let's get a few things straight. Yes, I view Islam4UK as fascist and Andy Chowdry as an Islamist version of Nick Griffin. I also think it is playing into the fascists' hands - and it doesn't matter here whether the fascists are flag of St George wavers or wear Islamic dress -- if they get the publicity they so crave. Using the fascists' language is not helpful, either.
As for "robust" Zionists, I am not sure what that means. I think the Zionists of the Conservative, Reform and Liberal movements are no less "robust" than the overly vocal supporters of every cough and fart Israel does. In fact, it is probably detrimental to Israel and Jews abroad.

Thanks, Moshe. I do find your views food for thought, even though I shouldn't be feeding you ;~)

"don't see what the problem is, if the group have already stated the protest will be peaceful"

"But that's the price we pay for living in a democracy".

Some people are so open-minded that their brains fall out

'I may detest what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it' .. Friends of Voltaire, 1906

Like shouting "fire" in a crowded cinema L-E?

You are either naive or disingenuous - you must know that free speech cannot be preserved without setting appropriate boundaries.

I think Islam4UK should have its demo outside your house at 3am: "don't see what the problem is, if the group have already stated the protest will be peaceful"

Dunno about you, DLE, but I get the impression that Andy Chowdry and Jonathan Hoffman would get on very well, given that they are both self-serving, self-aggrandising megaphones.

It's not quite the same as shouting fire in a crowded place, there is more than a subtle difference... but I wouldn't expect you to comprehend subtlety Jonathan so we'll let that pass.

To be honest, I would have no problem with them protesting outside my house, although I doubt staging it on a little back road in York would help really. Especially at 3am. Anyway, so long as it is peaceful, it is democratic. But yes Jonathan, it may surprise you but I would happily sacrifice a nights sleep to know that I lived in a society free from political suppression.

You call me naive to suggest that free speech also requires boundaries.... And im well aware of this, thats why I stated that so long as the demonstration is purely symbolic whilst also peaceful, it is an acceptable form of expression. 'Appropriate boundaries,' just makes me question who decided whether the incident in question was appropriate or not.

I think Jonathan, that you are naive to think that democracy is strong enough to survive being tampered with by people when they dont like the actions of a particular group... If we begin banning Islamic marches we will soon be banning any other groups that display elements of dissent. Such voices are fundamental and essential to the workings of a democracy. Plus only by hearing the voice can arguments against it be formed. Also, without the right to protest we are just two steps away from Mcarthyism.

No offence Jonathan, but Voltaire was a much, much smarter man than you... To call his sentiments disingenuous once again brings out your arrogance and lack of tolerance. Pluralism is fundamental in democracy, to think anything else is just hmmm, how can i put it.... 'naive and disingenuous.'

Well L-E we look forward to you marching with them to show how much you appreciate free speech. You are a wonderfully liberal human being. Bigots the world over will be proud of your insistence on their right of free speech.

In the meantime I'm with the Wiltshire Islamic Cultural Centre: “We unreservedly condemn this march and call on the organisers to not go ahead with it in the interests of public safety and of the Muslims they claim to represent as well as to respect the rights of the people of Wootton Bassett and Wiltshire.”

I never said i would march with them Jonathan, but I would not prevent their march.

Don't try to put words in my mouth.

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I think people with rational views would also be proud of my insistance on their right to free speech. Seems to be just Authoritarians like yourself who don't like it.

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As I have stated before, I think Wooten Basset is an insensitive location for such a march, but the basic idea of remembering Muslim victims of the conflict is valid enough.

"The price we pay for living in a democracy"
is that trolls are allowed to blog on this web site.
All the known trolls:-
moshetzarfati2
gordon bennett/bennet
ianlrabbak
d leigh ellis
sorry guys if i've forgotten any of you.
they are all allowed a platform to express their point of view on the Jewish Chronicle web site as the JC does not have moderators overviewing the comments. Contrast this with our "trendy lefty" friends at the undemocratic Guardian, where, as soon as a pro Israel post goes up it is taken down 5 minutes later by their "moderators".
As for "islam4uk" and Andy Chowdry, (or should that be Ali G), I am sure the local Police will stop this nonsense.
As for quoting Voltaire - times have changed since 1906.
Quote me instead "Too much democracy is unhelpful, the liberal and "lefties" opened the floodgates and look at the mess we're in".

Jon, you forgot me ...

Voltaire might have been a smart man. He was also no friend to the Jews. He saw them as relics of medieval superstition and their survival as something deplorable in post-Enlightenment Europe. Owing to rationalist views such as his, which precipitated the French Revolution, Napoleon granted the Jews citizenship on condition that they satisfied his criteria for proving that they had adapted to modernity and worthy of citizenship.
Oh yes, DLE, I can just imagine what the great Voltaire (and Napoleon) would have made of militant Islam in Europe.

Jon go back to your BNP meeting.
Yvetta, Beethoven and Mozart didn't much like Jews either, so should we stop listening to them?

Your analogy is poor, Moshe. I am pointing out that Napoleon, the heir of the French Revolution and of Voltaire's rationalism, applied stringent criteria to the Jews of France before he granted them citizenship. Had he been faced with today's radical Islamists in Europe, neither he nor Voltaire would - to judge by their views and behaviour in this regard - have been prepared to concede them citizenship. They would have demanded that the Islamists make concessions to modernity and prove their capacity to integrate and their loyalty to France if they wished to have the privilege of citizenship.
So by invoking Voltaire as a stick with which to beat the intrepid Jonathan, DLE hasn't chosen particularly wisely.

DLE chose exceedingly wisely. Voltaire is the standard by which we in democratic societies are all judged, even the troll megaphone Hoffman. By the way, the stringent criteria to which you refer were applied to all French cityoens. Try to remember that in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the Jews were the only other non-Christian group living in any great number within the republique.

"Know them by the company they keep" .....

Voltaire (Essai sur le Moeurs): "The Jewish nation dares to display an irreconcilable hatred toward all nations, and revolts against all masters; always superstitious, always greedy for the well-being enjoyed by others, always barbarous -- cringing in misfortune and insolent in prosperity."

Voltaire believed that Jews epitomised "tyranny and bigotry.....Jews are ... the greatest scoundrels who have ever sullied the face of the globe ... They are, all of them, born with raging fanaticism in their hearts, just as the Bretons and Germans are born with blond hair. I would not in the least be surprised if these people would not some day become deadly to the human race ... You [Jews] have surpassed all nations in impertinent fables, in bad conduct, and in barbarism. You deserve to be punished, for this is your destiny".

Voltaire: "the Jew does not belong to any place except that place which he makes money; would he not just as easily betray the King on behalf of the Emperor as he would the Emperor for the King?"

Voltaire called Jews "our masters and our enemies ... whom we detest ... the most abominable people in the world."

You guys are funny... Because I mentioned Voltaire immediately the issue of Voltaires opinion of Jews becomes paramount... Why not actually take on board the sentiment rather than the man himself...? Besides, as you should know if you had done your research, Voltaire's quote actually reads slightly differently. The Friends of Voltaire whice I cited, was written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall and serves as a philosophical primer. It is not in any manner associated with antisemitic ideals and sorry but you can't ignore what is one of the founding cornerstones of Liberal thought simply because someone who happened to articulate one of its ideals particularly well may have been prejudiced. Just because Voltaire may have been an antisemite does not mean that everybody who followed in his ideas were too..... Similarly, I'm not a nazi for thinking that motorways are a good idea.

But go on then, sidetrack the discussion as always, away from the subjects of protest and democracy, to Voltaires own warped opinions.

edit:
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btw the Jewish Online Encyclopedia whilst acknowledging his antisemitism also points out,

the antisemitism of Voltaire, far from being a tactical stratagem, expressed in the facility of his attacks against the Jews, was primarily a result of his hatred for the Church. For instance, it is characteristic of Voltaire that in his polemics with Isaac de *Pinto, he forgot the habitual formula which followed his usual way of signing, "Écrasez l'Infâme," and signed instead: "Voltaire, chrétien gentilhomme de la chambre du Roi très-chrétien." Historically speaking, Voltaire's outlook was a powerful contribution to the creation of the mental climate which made possible the emancipation of the Jews, but at the same time it prepared the ground for the future racial antisemitism. Just after Voltaire's death, Zalkind *Hourwitz, librarian to the king of France, wrote: "The Jews forgive him all the evil he did to them because of all the good he brought them, perhaps unwittingly; for they have enjoyed a little respite for a few years now and this they owe to the progress of the Enlightenment, to which Voltaire surely contributed more than any other writer through his numerous works against fanaticism."

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Anyway, all I did was quote one line, one of the mans good ideas, not his bad ones... perhaps if you'd continued the discussion rather than simply trying (and failing) to prove my source as illegitimate, this would all have been markedly less futile.

"Similarly, I'm not a nazi for thinking that motorways are a good idea."

The first motorway was in Italy though.

I think you'd better quit before you dig yourself in so deep that the pit closes over the top of you ..

DLE, I've come to the conclusion that these people are hilarious, relying on anachronistic comparisons. Shall we start quoting Shakespeare, too, and see if they believe the Bard was an antisemite?
Is it any wonder British Jews think the ZF and its ilk are a bit of an embarrassment whose time has gone.

Right the pit.. k then Jonathan... I guess I'll see you at the bottom then... You're quite settled down there I guess (having been there a while) so you can show me the sights. It'll be our first man-date.

You know as well as I that I was referring to the autobahn system which was popularised and standardised during the Nazi regime.

I also love how you have taken issue with the one line of my post that was clearly in jest... Your typical tactics of attacking rather than engaging..

"Is it any wonder British Jews think the ZF and its ilk are a bit of an embarrassment whose time has gone."

More argument by unsubstantiated assertion from the resident tr^ll

more ignoring the subjects put to him by Mr ZF himself...

ladies and gentleman, I give you.... Hoffman

Please don't give him to us, DLE

Sorry to drag this board back from the murky depths of silence but it seems that David Mitchell agrees with me. In fact, he even quoted the ridiculous ideals of the same nasty old antisemite as me,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/10/david-mitchell-free-...

''The thing about freedom of speech is that people are allowed to say offensive, indefensible things; that we needn't fear that because we're sure that wiser counsels are more likely to convince. "Let the idiots and bullies speak openly and they will be revealed for what they are!" is the idea. It's a brilliant one and, in confident, educated societies, it almost always works – certainly much more often than any of the alternatives. ''

Pleased to see someone has re awakend this very serious debate - even if it is only a troll.
The Point of this bog was to highlight the exact point DLE tries to make - and that is "that we are NO longer in a confident and educated society"
Total democracy has seen to that, where every "mad mullah" and "left wing nutter" is allowed to voice his opinion in public, regardless of the consequences, intended or otherwise, this has left the UK in the mess it is today.
Politicians who are afraid to call a "spade a spade", afraid of the threat of the "politcally correct" Guardian readers threatening a breach of "Human Rights" or a court order agains an Israeli Politician or some other such nonsense.
A line needs to be drawn and right minded people need to educate, and decide for the masses what is right or wrong and no it is NOT right for "islam4uk" to march through Wootton Bassett. It needs to be said loudly and clearly that the Jewish Community are as outraged and sickened by this as the families and loved ones of the UK military.

A troll is someone who derails online discussion, so don't accuse me of being one when I'm the only person who is prepared to bother with your little rants. If you don't want to engage with me then don't respond, but don't wait longingly for days for someone to talk to you and then immediately begin to insult them. I imagine you wouldn't do that in company, so why is it ok on the internet?

As far as I am concerned, society is fairly confident and educated. Even if there is a lot of stupid splayed all over the TV and newspapers, people are smarter than you realise in discerning between idiocy and intellect. But I guess if you are always going to see only the negative then you won't agree... ever....

btw, could you perhaps think to make a post in which you didnt refer to Guardian readers or Left wing nutters? I love the fact that anyone who you dislike gets the 'inverted commas' treatment, as if they do not really exist.

I guess in the end I'll just be glad that you don't speak for the whole Jewish community then Jon.

DLE, I think TrollCohen proves your point that "Let the idiots and bullies speak openly and they will be revealed for what they are!" He has been revealed for what he is. I also note he has no problem with far right nutters, such as the BNP, and Daily Mail/Express readers.

DLE, I think TrollCohen proves your point that "Let the idiots and bullies speak openly and they will be revealed for what they are!" He has been revealed for what he is. I also note he has no problem with far right nutters, such as the BNP, and Daily Mail/Express readers.

Thank goodness the government has seen sense - - this is Democracy at work.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453560.stm

Its more politics at play than democracy at work.. It's a populist move that will work because it has support and it enables the govt to seem tough on extremists, but its not democratic.

Bans do not work, when the Americans banned alcohol, it did not work. The Romans banned Christianity .. and then became Christianity. Think of all the times that practice of Judaism has been banned, yet we are still here.

somebody who agrees with me, but writes it much better than i can....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8457885.stm