Could one ever be a Jewish muslim or a Jewish Christian?

Was the person who wrote this sober?

I recognise neither your description of Israel, Judaism or being Jewish in this piece. It appears you have been reading and listening to some anti-Israel screeds and speakers and some post-Zionists without the remotest idea of the actual realities of history or Zionism. There are so many logical errors and contradictions I'd hardly know where to start.

The term 'kosher concept' is revealing - revealing in its ignorance.

But thanks - because it explains your point of view and your point of reference for future posts. We now know exactly where you are coming from.

Perhaps the author should identify sources when plagiarizing content from the internet.

In this instance it appears to have originated here:

http://holocaustmuseum.org.uk/opinion/middle-east/370032-you-cant-be-a-j...

I find it particularly distasteful and offensive that someone would set up an anti-Israel news website with the URL "holocaustmuseum.org.uk"

These people are sick.

Well said, Matt. (I sent you a message on here the other day; not sure whether it reached you!)

"Perhaps the author should identify sources when plagiarizing content from the internet."

A Jew-hater and a thief - sounds like a typical Nazi to me.

The individual responsible for the article (Lev Grinberg) is an evil monster.

May the names of the original author and the thief be erased from the Book of Life.

'I find it particularly distasteful and offensive that someone would set up an anti-Israel news website with the URL "holocaustmuseum.org.uk" '

The site is owned by the infamous Andrew Winkler:

http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/holocaustmuseum.org.uk

Here's the kind of thing he regularly puts out:

Why I believe the Jews are lying about the Holocaust

Andrew Winkler – Ziopedia.org February 4, 2008

"From time to time I get asked why I believe that the Jews are lying about the Holocaust. After all, they argue, if they lied about it, it would be such a gigantic lie, that if found out, it would do enormous damage to the Jewish people. Apart from being utterly immoral, why would the Jews be so crazy to take such a huge risk?"

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=7990

"Elie Wiesel and the Big Lie"

By Robert Lindsay and Andrew Winkler – Ziopedia.org
February 14, 2007

[Extract]

"Andrew Winkler: It’s a well known fact in the dissident community, both on the left and the right of the political spectrum, that Elie Wiesel’s supposedly non-fictional autobiography is in fact mostly fictional. For example he goes on and on in his book “Night” how the Nazis slowly burned their victims to death in crematories, when all the other 'witnesses' claim they were killed in gas chambers, not exactly a minor detail. But such is the power of the mainstream media, that hardly anybody outside of the dissident scene knows anything about it."

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=6032

Here (below) is the link to the article in question. It comes from Haaretz and was evidently taken from there for the holocaust museum website. Authors of articles can't stop other websites using them.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/you-can-t-be-a-jewish-musli...

Peter misses out the first paragraph, which aptly describes Joshua18 as well as Shlomo Avineri: Joshua18 has no persuasive arguments, so he raises the tone of his voice and shouts insults and curses.

First para of Haaretz article:

"Just like the story about the late Israeli politician Moshe Sneh, who raised the tone of his voice because his arguments were not persuasive, Professor Shlomo Avineri raises the tone in his reply to Salman Masalha, both of whose opinion pieces appeared on these pages earlier this month, and paints him as a racist. But Masalha did not claim that there is no Jewish people or that Jews do not have the right to self-determination. His argument is simple: If the state is defined by religion, it cannot treat all its citizens equally, as required of a democratic system of government."

Deborah

PS If you click on the holocaust museum link provided by Matt and scroll down to the end of the Lev Grinberg article, it says at the end: "Source: Haaretz".

Deborah

"Peter misses out the first paragraph, which aptly describes Joshua18 as well as Shlomo Avineri: Joshua18 has no persuasive arguments, so he raises the tone of his voice and shouts insults and curses."

As far as you are concerned, my extremely persuasive arguments lie in the killing fields of Europe and the many kapos who served their Nazi masters.

'If you click on the holocaust museum link provided by Matt and scroll down to the end of the Lev Grinberg article, it says at the end: "Source: Haaretz".'

And we are supposed to be impressed by the fact that the article came from Haaretz? There are many days when one would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between that newspaper and an Islamofascist propaganda ministry.

A couple of truly vile songs by Maccoby (scroll down):

While We Were Sailing To Gaza

I Saw Two Ships Come Sailing In [That's exactly what we need at Christmas - a little more Jew-baiting]

http://www.anis-online.de/office/events/FreeGazaSong/lyrics.htm

@DM

Except the state isn't defined by religion it's defined by peoplehood and that people originally was coextensive with the religion they followed.

Are you telling me Herzl was meshuggah frum?

Are you telling me the millions of Russians who came to Israel came on grounds of their religion or the people and culture they identified with?

Israel is the only middle east country where you can practise whatever religion you choose. The only country where you can vote or follow whatever religion you may happen to follow or not. Please tell me one other ME country where this is the case.

And are you saying Israel has a right to exist EVEN THOUGH it can never be truly democratic (whatever that means)? Or are you just being disingenuous about the Jewish right to self-determination?

And do you mean to tell me that whatever would replace the imperfect Israeli democracy would be MORE democratic or are you thinking of that imaginary Utopia where Jews are allowed to live as Dhimmi, if at all, in Greater Palestine where only Marx and Allah may be freely worshipped?

Either Jews, who must define themselves, not be defined by Leftist intellectuals, are entitled to self-determination or not.

But look at the Palestinians' idea of self-determination: Mahmoud Abbas wants a Judenrein Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza whilst allowing hundreds of thousands, nay millions, of Pal Arabs to flood into Israel. Maybe you should focus your attention on Palestinian democratic credentials because if you want them to live in PalTopia with the the Dhimmi Jews they would have to be MORE democratic than the Israelis by your own analysis, no? Or do pure forms of democracy only apply to Jewish States in the ME?

Attacking Israeli democracy is yet another of the delegitimisation ploys: attack what is a Jew, attack democracy, the legal system,the armed forces, historical claims, cultural and religious heritage. All those pillars by which Israel stands proud as a free democratic nation, making massively disproportionate contributions to medicine, science, economics and the arts, have to be attacked and deconstructed. Why? So we can have a Hamastan or a Hizbollahstan or another Syria or Jordan.

The question is not whether you can have a Jewish Muslim but can you have an Israeli Muslim? - Yes. Can you have a Jewish Palestinian? - Apparently not - You can't even have a Jewish Jordanian.

There are genuine issues with regard equality and citizenship in Israel but their resolution is not dissolution into something far worse.

If the price for Jewish survival is an imperfect democracy then I'm all for it, but at the same time, that imperfection should forever be scrutinised and improved upon. The sooner there is real peace, the faster that improvement will come.

The basis point here is that, as i have argued previously on this blog, you cannot have a Jewish-democratic state, any more than you can have a Muslim-democratic state.

As such a religious state, such as Israel is undemocratic due to the different rights it gives to Jews and the second class status it gives to 'non-Jews'.

There is no equality for all citizens in a religious state, so it cannot be 'democratic'. Israel treats Palestinians and Bedouin that lived on this land prior to Israel's creation, with discrimination principally because they are not Jewish.

Now what is democratic about that?

"The basis point here is that, as i have argued previously on this blog, you cannot have a Jewish-democratic state, any more than you can have a Muslim-democratic state."

Prior to World War II, France, Holland and Norway were democratic states. However, that didn't prevent the overwhelming majority of their citizens collaborating with the Nazis to murder many thousands of Jews and steal all their property. Nor did it prevent Britain and the U.S. from collaborating in the Holocaust both directly and indirectly.

I reject entirely your ridiculous notions (do you really believe that Israel is more ethnocentric and discriminatory, institutionally and otherwise, than Poland, Lithuania or Switzerland?), but whatever the rights and wrong of the situation, there is no alternative to Israel for the Jewish people, not that is if they want to survive. In the Muslim world, we would be treated as third-class citizens. In what passes for the Christian world these days the prospects would be even more dire for there is little question that, at least as far as the Jewish people are concerned, absolutely nothing has changed. At some point in the future, that mask of decency would be ripped off and you would be back to your old ways. Mass murder, theft and genocide would once again be on the menu. Don't get me wrong, it is not in your blood, but it is ineradicably rooted in your respective cultures. Israel exists not because Jews are evil, but because they are.

In a decent world, after the Holocaust, the peoples of Europe would have been driven into exile. Their lands would then have then been given to those who might well have deserved them. Europeans certainly didn't. I am far from convinced that they do today.

No offense but your Holocaust rant has got absolutely nothing to do with the point i made.

You stated: 'In the Muslim world, we would be treated as third-class citizens', and this is exactly how Palestinians both Muslim and Christian are treated in Israel. Like i said, you cannot be a religious state and be democratic, unless the state is genuinely secular.

The way Israel treats Palestinians (within Israel), is no different to the way some minorities are treated in some Muslim states, they are discriminated against.

raycook

You get the award for joke of the day -

''Are you telling me the millions of Russians who came to Israel came on grounds of their religion or the people and culture they identified with?''

Ray it was because of their religion, the 'law of return' allows any Jews to migrate to Israel on the basis of their RELIGION. As Israel gives special treatment to JEWS.

Plus the Mizrahim Jews are discriminated against within Israel because of their perceived different culture and ethnicity.

ibrows, so pleased to have amused you and reciprocated the many amusing moments you have given me.

The point I was making is that although Jews are identified by their religion or religious inheritance, Israel is not a Jewish state but a state of the Jews. Jewish halacha does not equal the legal system as Shari'a does in Islamic countries.

You don't have to be Jewish to be an Israeli, but if you can demonstrate your Jewishness then you have a right of return - this is true. And it is true and necessary for reasons you know very well and remain necessary and even more pertinent every time someone tries to delegitimise Israel.

Mizrachi Jews discriminated against? maybe, but what point are you making? A basis for dismantling Israel because it is not perfect, perhaps.

Well-argued, Ray! Game, set and match to you.

Though the Jewish State - in the sense of the state of all the Jews in the world, not of its citizens - does seem to mean an ethnic rather than religious identity (or maybe both together, as Jewishness is both an ethnic and religious identity: an ethno-religious group), the problem is that non-Jews can only become Jewish through religious conversion. Which means that a non-Jew can be an Israeli citizen but cannot be a national of the Jewish state, unless he or she converts to Judaism. Anyone, of any religion or ethnic background, who becomes a British citizen is also included in the British nation. This isn't the case with non-Jews in Israel. They are citizens but not nationals, not part of the national family, as it were. So surely there is a problem here - and surely, if Israel wants to be a truly democratic, liberal state, it needs to stop being the state of one people, the majority of which doesn't live there.

Deborah

Actually, Ray and yvetta, it's the Jewish stare according to its declaration of independence and symbols and anthem. Then there's the loyalty law going through the Knesset, which defines israel as a Jewish state. O Halacha has nothing to do with it, although there are some who would like to impose this.

@DM the problem is that non-Jews can only become Jewish through religious conversion. Which means that a non-Jew can be an Israeli citizen but cannot be a national of the Jewish state, unless he or she converts to Judaism

Er, not quite. This is what's known as a non-sequitur.

Let's alter this sentence by replacing some of the words:

'The problem is that a non-Catholic can only become Catholic through religious conversion. Which means that a non-Catholic can be a Spanish citizen but cannot be a national of the Spanish state...' doesn't really work, does it, because just as Israel does not have a pre-requisite to be Jewish to be an Israeli, neither does the catholic country of Spain have a pre-requisite to be Catholic.

If you are making a point about the difference between peoplehood' and nationality then the Arabs are a people but they can be Israeli. A Basque can be Spanish, a Kurd, Iraqi. It is quite possible for minorities who do not have their own country to become citizens of another. It is also possible for those who have their own nation to become citizens of another country; heard of Irish-Americans or Latino-Americans? they are full citizens who cleave to their national roots and identity.

I am English, I don't celebrate Christmas or Easter - am I not, then, part of the national project of the UK?

However, it is true that many Arabs may feel that the Jewish narrative of return and building a Jewish state leaves them somewhat alienated from this story. But how alienated are Jews in Muslim countries? Or Muslims in the UK when they see troops in Afghanistan? Or Native Americans in the US and Canada?

Nations are rarely co-extensive with peoples. Israel is no different in that respect.

@telegram as for the loyalty law, although I can understand it because there is an issue, however, I never liked it, so at least we can agree on that. I think such laws may be more pertinent after a permanent peace settlement. They only serve to cause mistrust and division whatever the provocation from a vociferous Arab minority who are openly disloyal. (I mean a minority of Arabs, not all of them)

and @DM re the state of one people, I think I have already dealt with that, but to add 'the majority of which doesn't live there' is interesting because it means that you agree that Jews in the Diaspora are part of a Jewish people, members of whom, are part of other nations. These people have the right to remain minorities in their countries of birth or choice, or they have a right to move to the country of their people.

As for majorities, there are more Irish in America then Ireland.

In the former Yugoslavia there are some interesting parallels where Croatians living in Serbia and Serbians living in Croatia have little loyalty to the state they found themselves in 20 years ago. No-one is suggesting that Yugoslavia be reformed because we know what happened already. A one-state solution in Israel/Palestine, apart from denying Jewish peoplehood would end the same way.

Ray, any citizen of Spain is also a Spanish national, included in the Spanish nation. As you are a British citizen, you are included in the British nation, regardless of your religion. The point I'm making is that a non-Jewish citizen of Israel is not included in the Jewish nation-state, or nation-state of the Jews, whichever way you want to put it. There is no Israeli nationality, in the way there is British or Spanish nationality. Israel is regarded by its government as the nation-state of the entire Jewish people. See this link, which explains things very clearly:

http://theonlydemocracy.org/2010/04/no-such-thing-as-israeli-nationality...

Deborah

raycook

you seem to confirm my point that Israel is currently a Jewish state and treats its Jewish citizens far better than the non-Jews amongst the population:

''However, it is true that many Arabs may feel that the Jewish narrative of return and building a Jewish state leaves them somewhat alienated from this story. But how alienated are Jews in Muslim countries?''

You seem to be drawing parallels yourself between the discrimination suffered by minorities in some Muslim states, and the discrimination Palestinians face in the Jewish state of Israel. I agree these parallels of discrimination do exist.

And this discrimination towards Palestinians is despite the fact that the majority of Palestinians (or 'Israeli-Arabs' as they are now often referred to as) have lived in this land prior to Israel's creation, yet now find themselves treated as second class citizens.

@DM what about the Israeli nation? Look on a passport - it says nationality Israeli regardless of whether you are Jew or Christian or Muslim or Buddhist. Jews are a people. Israel is a nation.

It matters not how many times or ways you spin it, every Israeli has equal rights and citizenship by law. If they don't receive them then that is something for Israelis to address in the same way the British would address it.

There are historic and current reasons for Israeli Arabs to feel alienated. Not all do. Many play a full part in Israeli society. There is mutual suspicion but there are also many marvellous examples of coexistence.

I don't except ibrows analysis of what I said. I don't think Jews are treated far better but I do think that there are issues which may be cultural and may be historic as to why Israeli Arabs generally do less well than Israeli Jews, But look at african-caribbeans in the UK - many feel alienated and discriminated against and under achieve.

I'd like to know your solutions to these perceived problems. Anyone can find issues with any country. I am not one who sees Israel as beyond criticism. But neither am I in the business of joining those whose criticism is relentless and politically motivated to destroy Israel.

So what sort of state would you like to see in Israel/Palestine DM and ibrows? Let's hear your solutions and maybe then the pro-Zios will have a chance to comment on your version of of a solution to the Israel problem.

DM has already said she believes the Jews have a right to self-determination, so you'll need to accommodate that in the solution. And the Palestinians also have a right to self-determination. So square that circle if you can. Please bear in mind that no Jews will be allowed in Palestine in any 2-state solution.

Raycook

I simply think Israel must withdraw to the legal pre-1967 borders to enable a viable Palestinian state.

I think the problem Israel has created for itself is that it desires neither the one-state, nor two-state solution, so continues the status quo and increases Jewish settlements, seizing Palestinian land and expelling Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem.

If Israel accepts a one-state solution, it must give up the notion of Israel as a Jewish state, and recognise the rights of the Palestinians within Israel. If Israel were to do this it would fear the so-called 'demographic' issues, that Palestinians may in time numerically overtake Jews, on this basis, Israel will never accept a one-state solution.

If Israel accepts a two-state solution, it must give up territory it has illegally seized, withdraw to the pre-1967 legal borders, and probably dismantle the majority, if not all its illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, something again, I don't think Israel is prepared to do.

Here a couple of links that might help:

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=184841

http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/08/so-you-want-to-hold-direct-talk...

The only way a one-state solution would work, were if the state of Israel gave up its status as a Jewish state and represented all its citizens adequately, something i can't see it agreeing to.

The options for Israel are either, 'demographic' fear (one-state), or 'give up illegally seized territory' (two-state solution), which is precisely why Israel will do neither, and carry on constructing settlements and seizing Palestinian land, and blame Abbas for the failure of peace talks, when he does not agree to a ridiculous statement like 'recognising Israel as a Jewish state'.

If Abbas were to recognise this, it would effectively end any chance of those Palestinian refugees 'rights of return', plus can you imagine that Israel will be recognising the state of Palestine in these talks?

The only thing i agree with in your link is that Abbas is a puppet and a rubbish leader.

But regarding Israel statement it won't accept an ' pre-conditions', such as a 'settlement freeze' (that will not hold anyway, the current one, due to expire soon has been totally bypassed), Israel itself is imposing several pre-conditions, such as the statement 'no pre-conditions' and that Abbas must recognise Israel as a Jewish state.

The whole thing is a total joke, you can blame Hamas all you want, but in reality Israel like i have shown has boxed itself into a corner where it can't choose peace and keep the Jewish settlements, can't choose one-state solution and keep the demographic majority, can't choose two-state solution and keep its seized territory

Ray, have a look at this article by Jonathan Cook, about Israeli citizenship and nationality:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11187.shtml

Note in particular:

"The group also said it hoped to expose a verbal sleight of hand that intentionally mistranslates the Hebrew term 'Israeli citizenship' on the country’s passports as 'Israeli nationality' in English to avoid problems with foreign border officials.

B Michael, a commentator for Yedioth Aharonoth, Israel’s most popular newspaper, has observed: 'We are all Israeli nationals -- but only abroad.'"

Deborah

ibrows - thanks but I think we have monopolised this post - we'll never agree and I'm sure we'll be meeting again on another post. I don't think we'll be able to negotiate a peace settlement between us. I don't think Israel is as boxed in as you think, but I think Abbas cannot make peace because he'd be killed - that simple.

you mean like Yitzhak Rabin

Oy ibrows are you that sarfati person? and was that handball?