Chris Patten attacks Israel

Guardian link - no credibility
Guardian interview - no credibility
Chris Patten - who is he? Just another Israel basher.
President of:-
http://www.map-org.uk/
Not exactly indpendent is he? so, no credibility.
Neither he or Catherine Ashton, (who is she?)have any influence or credibility.
Why should Israel be in the slightest bit interested in what these people have to say?

Strangely enough, all the Israel bashers in these blogs have the same posting style: a title, a short sentence and a link pointing to the opinion of an Israel-basher, repeating false statements like the "illegality" of the blockade, the "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza, etc.

And, I forgot: they all have Jewish-like pseudos! Some even pretend to live in Israel.

'Attacks' Israel? Criticises, but 'attacks'?

He is entitled to his opinions.

Israel does not need to be interested in his opinions but he is trying to influence the EU here, not Israel.

As a former senior Tory politician, last British governor of Honk Kong, experienced diplomat and negotiator his opinions do carry weight.

I don't agree with much of what he is saying here because he compare Hamas with the IRA - this is a false comparison.

But sooner or later Haniyeh will be given legitimicay by Europe.

Then they may realise Hamas is a greater problem than Israel. May.

But sooner or later Haniyeh will be given legitimicay by Europe.

Why? Does that mean Haniyeh or Hamas? And under what conditions? Will EU recognize a terrorist organization that vowed to destroy Israel and kill all its Jewish inhabitants?
Of course, if they change their attitude, their Charter, they allow free elections, etc., EU might change its evaluation of Hamas. But that would be a big change and much expected by Israel.

There's nothing new about Chris Patten's dislike of the little Jewish State.

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&...

As Yvetta says Patten has a long history as an israel-basher. Former EU Commissioner Bolkestein says of him (when Patten was a Commissioner):

"On another matter, if my memory is correct, when there were inquiries on the issue of Palestinian misuse of EU funds, Patten replied: ‘We are sure that all the money has been put to good use.'"

Patten consistently denied that EU money was being abused by the Palestinians.

A very useful link, Jonathan.

Chris Patton is a well respected politician from the right.

He is also the Presidenct of MAP - another well respected charity that helps Palestinian victims of israeli terror and occupation

Chris Patton desribed the seige of Gaza as medieval. This will be reported around the world because of who is.

"Chris Patton is a well respected politician from the right."

"He is also the President of MAP - another well respected charity that helps Palestinian victims of israeli terror and occupation"

Patten NOT Patton - Respected by who?? - himself?
MAP respected by who? Palestinian terrorists.

As president of MAP - "Medical Aid For Palestinians", he has foregone any right to speak on this matter as he is obvioulsy NOT objective, as he shows total support for the Palestinian cause.

As I said earlier the man has NO credibilty to speak on this issue.

Careful folks.

Firstly, saying he has no right to talk about Israel because he sympathises with Palestininans is ridiculous.

The corollary would be that we have no right to criticise Hamas because we are pro-Israel.

Secondly, what evidence is there that he dislikes Israel. He may not like Israel that much, but that is different from saying he has an animus against Israel. He has every right to want to help Palestinians.

We may believe that some of his views are misguided but there are plenty of people in Israel who are more radical.

If we disagree with Patten, then deconstruct his argument, don;t dismiss it.

oh, and the reason the 'anti-Zionist' 'bloggers' just leave a link is because this link adds page rank to the article they want to bring attention to.

The JC should convert all posted links to 'no follow' to stop what is essentially spam.

jose

you claim patten is not credible, but unlike you and all the pro-Israel tribe on here, (who will never accept any criticism of Israeli policies), chris patten has actually been to Gaza!!! so that makes him more credible than you. He's actually been, seen the humanitarian disaster and the increase in illegal settlements and the collapse of the Gaza economy, and the ban by Israel of all exports.

that seems pretty credible basis upon which to call for an end to the Israeli blockade of Gaza.. plus like Patten says, the blockade is a collective punishment and it hasn't weakened Hamas, merely undermining living standards of the Gazan population

Plus Patten mentions that ONLY BY TALKING TO THE IRA, did the situation in Ireland improve. That is proof that so-called 'terrorist' groups should be engaged with if Israel actually wants a lasting peace settlement, and not to simply continue building illegal settlements and creating new facts on the ground

"Secondly, what evidence is there that he dislikes Israel."

Mainly his use of openly biased arguments that I mentioned above ("illegal blockade", "humanitarian crisis").

"oh, and the reason the 'anti-Zionist' 'bloggers' just leave a link is because this link adds page rank to the article they want to bring attention to."

Could be but I don't think Google takes into account links found in blogs (or Wikipedia, or YouTube). So if the anti-'Zionists' come here to get a higher rank for their links, they are loosing their time.

"you claim patten is not credible"

ibrows, you confuse me with someone else. I don't claim anything ad hominem. I claim that what he says is not credible.
The "illegality" of the Gaza blockade is exactly the same as any other blockade in aany war. That is perfectly legal, laws to be considered here being the laws of war. And Israel respects them by allowing all humanitarian aid to come through.
Then the "humanitarian crisis" does not exist.

Patten is just another fool, repeating demonising propaganda.

"Plus Patten mentions that ONLY BY TALKING TO THE IRA, did the situation in Ireland improve."

Did the IRA ever stated that they wanted to eradicate the UK?

The analogy with IRA does not hold. Full stop.

"the blockade is a collective punishment"

Is it really? Was the blockade against Nazi Germany "collective punishment"? Remember that Gazans elected Hamas, just as Germans elected Hitler (in fact Gazans gave a greater majority to Hamas). And remember this: people are collectively responsible of what their democratically elected representants do.

"and it hasn't weakened Hamas, merely undermining living standards of the Gazan population"

This will be seen when they allow an election to be held in the Gaza Strip. By the way, Patten never mentioned that small problem!

Jose

there was serious bombing in London, so yes the analogy does certainly hold up, it just that you don't like it.

The IRA was fighting to get England to pull out of Ireland, so it bombed London. Likewise, Hamas is fighting to get Israel to end the occupation of Gaza, by using armed resistance. I don't support the use of violence, but there are certainly similarities, and no lasting peace deal can be achieved without including Hamas, as with Ireland it had to include talks with the IRA

jose

nonsense, many Israeli's don't support the continued Israeli occupation of Palestine, likewise many British people protested against the invasion of Iraq, you cant hold all citizens responsible for all government policies and errors.

I tend to agree with Ray on this - "Attacks" is too strong a word. It could be a lot worse :~/

Yvetta

But on JC a criticism is often automatically assumed by many to be 'an attack', 'anti-Israel', 'Anti-semitic'.

criticism is allowed despite Jon's wild reaction and those that actually read Patten's comments will realise they have substance. As i mentioned above regarding talking to Hamas, and that the blockade has not weakened Hamas, its merely punishing the Gazan population, these facts cannot be disputed amongst those that have actually been to Gaza

"you cant hold all citizens responsible for all government policies and errors."

Oh yes I can! And so did Churchill hold all Germans respondible for all Nazi government policies and errors.
Who would be so stupid as to tell me the contrary?

"read Patten's comments will realise they have substance."

They haven't got any. The "illegality" of the blockade is fantasy and the "humanitarian crisis" a demonising stupidity.

"and that the blockade has not weakened Hamas"

On the contrary, there are indications that the popularity of Hamas is at an all-time low, but when will they allow an election? Did IRA prevent any election in Ireland (or Northern Ireland)?

Patten's analogy does not hold scrutiny. It shows only his full bias.

Jose
wake up, in the real world, not the singular one dimensional world you wish to represent, people can actually disagree with their government (i know isn't it shocking!!), rather than simply blindly follow, or do you think anyone who disagrees with their government is automatically a terrorist?

I am a British citizen, i protested against the invasion of Iraq, i am not accountable for the British invasion of Iraq, like many millions of others i did not support it and protested against it. Likewise, many Israeli's and Palestinians protest every week against Israel's occupation of Palestine, they don't all automatically support it

"do you think anyone who disagrees with their government is automatically a terrorist?"

I don't know what you are responding to exactly. Not something I said, for sure, so I suggest you are building a Strawman.

"I am a British citizen, i protested against the invasion of Iraq"

Germans elected the Nazi regime and was held collectively responsible. The best proof is that Germans still pay for what the Nazi regime did.
A majority of Gazans voted for the Hamas. Israelis are likewise held collectively responsible for those who want to boycott Israeli goods.

I suggest the real world is something totally unknown to you. The real world is what I am talking about here.

Jose

so your saving no Israeli citizen, even the 'Arab-Israelis' disagree with Israeli policies towards the Palestinians?

we have, so far as i know, never talked to the ira, but patten says (from the same link) …

"Patten referred to his involvement with the Northern Ireland peace process, which "would not have been successfully concluded if we hadn't – with considerable American encouragement – agreed to talk to Sinn Fein/IRA." …

of course, patten has to add "/IRA" to support the idea that israel (and the eu) should talk to hamas

btw, chris patten is president of medical aid for palestinians …

does anyone know how much map's annual contribution to palestinians' healthcare compares with that of israeli and jewish sources?

Jon_i_Cohen: he has foregone any right to speak on this matter as he is obvioulsy NOT objective, as he shows total support for the Palestinian cause.

that is ridiculous … i agree entirely with raycook …

raycook: Firstly, saying he has no right to talk about Israel because he sympathises with Palestininans is ridiculous.

The corollary would be that we have no right to criticise Hamas because we are pro-Israel.

"so your saving no Israeli citizen, even the 'Arab-Israelis' disagree with Israeli policies towards the Palestinians?"

You are becoming ridiculous by persisting in you Strawman. I said that you hold Israelis collectively responsible when you call for a boycott of Israeli goods, academic boycott, etc.
Same thing applies for Palestinians, the more so since a clear majority voted for the Hamas who put them in that mess, just like the Nazis were elected by Germans.
Do you deny that Germans still pay for what the Nazis did?

ibrows, stop treating Palestinians like irresponsible children. The sooner they understand that they are accountable for what their leaders do, the better.

Patten is an inconsequential has-been nonentity. His position at Oxford is purely titular. He holds no government office. He has a few non-exec directorships.

Who gives a monkeys what he thinks or says anyway? Only the Israel-bashers, because their arguments are so devoid of truth or substance.

But Patten is not the only one to critique the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

The EU Foreign Policy Chief Catherine Ashton has recently called for an end to the blockade:

"The position of the European Union is very clear, that we want to see the opportunity for people to be able to move around freely, to see goods not only coming into Gaza, but exports coming out of Gaza"

i guess she is also inconsequential, is she Jonathan?

International sentiment is shifting, the world is beginning to the Israeli occupation and blockade for what it is, a collective punishment of the Gazans that has caused a humanitarian disaster and the collapse of the Gazan economy all facilitated by the only democracy in the middle east - Israel

"But Patten is not the only one to critique the Israeli blockade of Gaza."

The 60-million-Frenchmen-cannot-be-wrong argument!

"The position of the European Union is very clear"

Yes very clear: they consider Hamas as a terrorist organization that will not be talked to.
The Israelis also want the Palestinians to be free. They just don't want to pay for that freedom at the expense of their lives.

"a collective punishment of the Gazans"

Was the blockade of Germany "collective punishment"? Only an idiot would say that right? What is the difference with Gaza? Didn't the Palestinians elect the Hamas?
In fact they did and they gave them a larger majority that Hitler ever had.
So why do you treat Palestinians like children, ibrows? Democratic rules do not apply to them too?

By the way do you support any kind of collective punishment on Israelis? Boycott of Israeli goods, academic boycott, etc.?

The situation in Gaza is totally different to your repeated crazed attempt at a comparison with Germany. Yes Gazan elected Hamas, but its Israel that occupies Gaza through the Israeli blockade, imports and exports are prohibited by Israel and there are movement restrictions created by Israel, where civilians find it near impossible to leave Gaza even for emergency operations in Israel or Egypt, IS THAT THE SORT OF DEMOCRACY YOUR TALKING ABOUT. Not very similar to Germany really is it

Gazan's did not vote for the Israeli occupation of Gaza

Of course, if he thinks the siege is "medieval" I assume he agrees that Islamic terror, Islamic punishments, and Islamic oppression of women, is out of the Dark Ages and not fit for our times.

Yvetta

pot call the kettle black

So does the 'oppression of women' (which by the way is a huge generalisation and assumption - many Muslim women actually choose to wear the hijab) justify the occupation of Palestine and the blockade of Gaza?

Israel restricting the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza is pretty oppressive wouldn't you say? I think the occupation is 'not fitting of our times'

"many Muslim women actually choose to wear the hijab"

Ha, ha, ha!!! And in Africa, women actually choose to be excised.
They also actually choose to be married at 12 to a 60 years old and they also actually choose not to go to school, etc. They choose to be stoned to death for alleged adultery...
Contries in Europe are now banning the burqa and the hijab.
In Hamastan, they are regressing to Dark Ages.

Everyone knows why Gaza is blockaded (by Egypt, mainly), and that is because of you Hamas friends who illegally took power there. Everyone knows too that if 'Palestine' (meaning Judea Samaria) is occupied: because if Israel withdrew, the same thing would happen there as happened in Gaza.
The last thing Abbas wants is Israel to withdraw.

Abbas is a puppet who does not represent Gazan's and arguably does not represent the interests of Palestinians in the West Bank either, he just follows the US-Israel line of attending meetings, where nothing happens except Israel stalls on ending the occupation. Abbas does want Israel to stay in Gaza, but not because he cares about the Palestinians suffering there, he merely dislikes Hamas as a political rival. Abbas has no principals, that why you and Israel like him, as he wont press Israel to end the occupation

Firstly, interesting that Clevenson started this and then disappeared from the discussion - Hello!! Anyone there?

Secondly, I don't want to give the impression that I agree with Patten. The main Humanitarian crisis in Gaza is the oppression of its people by Hamas.

Patten fails to mention Egypt, which seems to be common practice. The BBC now adds this as an afterthought without mentioning that Egypt are still blocking the Jordanian Aid convoy whilst Israel processes and lets everything through that cannot be used for military purposes, although that position is relatively new post Mavi Marmara, before which much of the food items that were banned were clearly punitive (even petty) to bring pressure on Hamas by disgruntling the population. Although this was being eased before Mavi Marmara it is clear that that incident led to the easing of the embargo.

Also see this link http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001127.html if you think Gaza is the Warsaw Ghetto (at least Patten didn't make that evil comparison)

Even Hamas say there is no food crisis. The main problems now are building materials and the export blockade.

On the first point, there a number of building programs now underway, including the reconstruction of the sewage farm destroyed during Cast Lead.

Collective punishment is a term which should be reserved for the sort of thing the Nazis did in Lidice.
Israel is in a state of belligerence with Hamas who are the governemnt of Gaza as everyone is keen to tell us (i.e democratically elected). Hamas is also an Iranian proxy.
No country in the world would be as generous to its enemy as Israel is with Gaza.

Israel provides most of the electricity needs of Gaza and did so throughout Cast Lead. Israel provides Gaza's fuel needs. Israel lets in hundreds of trucks through its crossing points daily. Can someone tell me of any medieval siege where the besieger provided for the daily sustenance of the beseiged.

There is a big question over the ongoing issue with rebuilding. Hamas and its supporters worldwide and, it seems Patten and Ashton, like to point out Gazans living in the rubble of their homes. Yet shopping malls, swimming pools and restaurants are being built.
It couldn't be, could it, that those lovely Hamas peeople DELIBERATELY leave the rubble to bring pressure on Israel Isn't that obscene? After all, if you can get a 4 x 4 through a tunnel you can get concrete and steel. Noone ever asks that question. Just like the 'refugee camps' after 62 years are maintained as an ongoing weapon against Israel, house rubble in Gaza may well be being used for the same purpose.

I have no view on the export blockade. Gaza no longer has a viable port since the Israelis bombed it. What comes through a tunnel one way can out the other, surely? Some Gazans have made fortunes through the tunnels. It is arguable that normal commerce would be econmically worse for Gaza if the blockade were lifted. Maybe someone can help with the export conundrum.

Allowing free movement of people in and out of Gaza is a security nightmare for Israel. The geography of Gaza as an enclave is a major reason for its predicament and has allowed it to be annexed from the PA.

As for medical assistance, Israel treats hundreds of Gazans daily within Israel, that's a fact.

The IRA analogy is false. Northern Island is a legal province of the UK which is democratically represented at Westminster and, 40 years ago, at Stormont (although corruption and gerrymandering were a principle cause of the troubles). The IRA opportunistically wanted to use the unrest to push forward their policy of 'reuniting' Ireland. The Irish governemnt did not support the IRA although many still dream of a united Ireland, there was never any question that The Irish government supported terror.

The IRA operated from within the UK, Hamas operate from outside Israel; Ulster was divided between two religious factions one of which wanted to stay in the Uk and one which didn't. The one which didn't could not get their wishes via the ballot, so some of them chose the gun and the bomb. Gaza has no Jewish vote.

The IRA did not want to destroy the UK and drive out or murder every non-cathlolic, they did not question the legitimacy of Great Britain; Hamas want to destroy Israel, kill all the Jews inside and outside Israel and create a worldwide caliphate; the IRA did not have any plans to Catholicise the UK and then the world.

IRA bombs in the mainland UK were used to bring pressure on the UK government to change its policies;this was evil but it has a political motive. Hamas rockets and suicide bombers are intended to kill as many Jews as possible; anyone who believes this is out of 'desperation' (Tonge view) is morally bankrupt.

Israel withdrew from Gaza completely, the response of its people was to start firing rockets daily into Israel. If the UK parliament gave independence to the Welsh, wouldn't you want to stop the Celtic Liberation Front from firing rockets into Bristol? How would you react if Iran were sending boats to Haverfordwest every day laden with arms? Would you begin a Free Wales movement if the English blockaded Welsh ports?

"Abbas is a puppet who does not represent Gazan"

Oh, I see: you're a plain Hamas terrorist supporter. Even Abbas is not good enough for you. Since he has never done anything for peace, I wonder why.
It is clear that Abbas doesn't want his fiasco in Gaza duplicated in Judea Samaria. Who can blame it for that, except a Hamas terrorist supporter?

Abbas is totally corrupt. He is a puppet of Israel and the US. Indeed leading members of the PA are often seen spending large sums of money at Tel-Aviv night clubs.

It is this corruption which attracts Palestinians to Hamas.

Abbas a puppet of Israel - ha ha ha.

Anyone who says that has lost the argument their credibility and probably their marbles.

clevenson, that seems unlikely …

clevenson: leading members of the PA are often seen spending large sums of money at Tel-Aviv night clubs.

… spreading false rumours like this is not clever

… if it's not made up , can you provide a source or link to confirm it?

For a very good discussion on why the IRA is not Hamas, and why the same rules cannot be applied (in case that's not immediately obvious), I suggest people research Lord David Trimble's article on the matter which is on his website.