Breaking the Silence

The problem is that these "atrocities" were never witnessed by any of the 'witnesses' of the shameless NGO.

A typical example from the quoted rag:

A conscript from the Givati Brigade, for example, describes how troops in the company operating next to his inside Gaza during 2008 had talked about an event earlier in the day.

See? He never saw anything. He just testifies about what others said. These others never, of course, confirmed anything. Maybe they were also talking about something they had heard, and maybe those they had heard also were speaking about something they were told...

The problem with lefties is that they are ready to believe anything that confirms their prejudices. Interesting to see that this also happens in the extreme-right.
To me both extremes react in a similar way, to words, confusing them with facts.

The quoted rag then correctly notes:

A second-hand story, of course; one without names, dates or supporting detail. Except that it stirred a memory I had of reporting the death of a Palestinian UN schoolteacher east of Khan Younis.

So the story get credibility because the 'reporter' had heard another similar story before!

In July last year, it made its greatest impact by publishing accounts from around 30 combat soldiers involved in the onslaught on Hamas-controlled Gaza only six months earlier, challenging the military's assertion that it had done "the utmost to avoid harming uninvolved civilians".

So, first, there is no other organisation in the world that would similarly smear its own country, showing they hold Israel to higher standards than any other country (ie double standards, ie antisemitism). Second, they contradict the HAMAS own words that admitted some weeks ago that most of the victims were not civilians. In the crowded conditions in Gaza City where Tsahal was operations, this is tantamount to saying they have done the utmost to avoid harming civilians.
Fortunately, we have the HAMAS to deny lefties' smears! ROTFL!

There was a lot of "believing whatever they were told" going on during Cast Lead - e.g. hospitals getting bombed to oblivion that were miraculously standing again the following week.

It's odd how some people are only too willing to believe the worst things about Israelis but turn a complete blind eye to the crimes of the people they are fighting.

What's even more fascinating is people who not only rush to believe the ill tidings but then can't wait to jump on the internet to spread it about.

Tell me Jose, what word would describe someone who readily believes the worst things about Jews and then spends all his time and energy telling other people about it? You know, like this "ibrows" guy?

Good for Breaking the Silence. Honourable men (and women) who no longer wish to be complicit in occupation and oppression.

Tell me Jose, what word would describe someone who readily believes the worst things about Jews and then spends all his time and energy telling other people about it?

After WW II, these guys would have been called by the right word: "antisemites". Today, maybe "anti-Zionists". Of course! Antisemitism is such a horrible thing! That cannot really happen anymore, fortunately!

Good for Breaking the Silence. Honourable men

What's honourable about 'testifying' about hearsay as it it was factual?

I'm sure there are no people like that around in the 21st century Jose. After all, anti-Semitism is hatred for mankind, and nobody would want to be accused of that.

Breaking the Silence offer first hand testimony also. Their vision may be contrary to that of occupation, punishment and humiliation but that does not make it incorrect or inaccurate.

Good for them; brave and honourable people.

You're right Matt. What could be more horrible than seeing the ugly beast come to life again, after all what we have learnt from History?

Breaking the Silence offer first hand testimony also.

Really? That's news! You should publish that and show us what was the results.
I'm afraid that all what they had to show was hearsay. The second story suggested by the 'reporter', while having names is not of the same kind as the first one. No one to boast about a 'killing' of a woman. During wars, accidents happen.
And there is a war going on, no mistake.
Besides the second story might be as true as the Mohammed Al Dura hoax...

So "Breaking the Silence" is just a political organisation, which does not seek truth, but only confirmation of their prejudices. So again, what is honourable about that?

There's nothing wrong with groups like Breaking the Silence per se, I'm sure that the IDF - being the most moral army in the world - doesn't want bad behaviour within its ranks any more than the British or US armies do. A few bad apples, and all that. Whistle-blowers can be a force for good provided they are acting under their own initiative and not in the pay of enemies - which in the case of BTS is not entirely clear.

The problem is that every wrongdoing by the IDF is blown out of all proportion, is used to characterise not just the army and the conflict but the entire state of Israel, and by extension the Jewish people. This is wrong because the IDF does apply very strict rules of engagement and does take care to avoid civilian deaths, which is much more than can be said for the people they fight against.

Whether that makes their actions honourable or treacherous is a matter of perspective, but the timing of the revelations was certainly unhelpful in the context of the extremely biased and politicised Goldstone report, etc.

Then again the manner in which Olmert, Livni and Barack dealt with the accusations against the IDF was cack-handed and incompetent and showed a woeful lack of preparedness for something which was pretty much inevitable after the Hezbollah media fiasco.

To be honest I'm astonished that Barack is still in a position of power.

To be honest I'm astonished that Barack is still in a position of power.

Do you mean Barack Obama or Ehud Barak? ;)

I find it absolutely hilarious that a couple of people who are sitting on their lilywhites a couple of thousand miles away from the sharp end are questioning the motives of whistle-blowing Israeli soldiers or the country's political leadership in time of war. Astounding. Gertcha, as my sainted cockney grandmother was wont to say.

Joe: Israel's biggest problem in times of war is sedition. Having watched Hezbollah's tactics in 2006 Israel's politicians should have been wise to this fact, but they weren't and it had devastating consequences. That is incompetence.

The fact that Breaking The Silence are used by propagandists like ibrows to defame Israel and the IDF should give you pause for thought.

I'm sorry that you find Israel's good name being dragged through the mud a laughing matter. I don't.

Jose: The latter, although the glove does fit!

The testimonies of these soldiers is varied and covers the whole range of " witnessing " . They testify to what they saw and to what they heard. Obviously not all they testify to will be exactly as it was but that is inevitable. However the net effect of the testimonies is to provide Israelis who are willing and able to see and hear with a general picture of the true nature and horror of the occupation.

It is brave young people like these that represent Israels best chance of a long term future

Matt, I would have thought that Israel's biggest problem in times of war was tanks, planes and other hardware.

It would greatly profit jose and Matt by reading "Matches" by Alan Kaufman.....

Not in the case of 2006 or 2008/9 Joe, since neither Hamas or Hezbollah have such hardware at their disposal. Instead they booby-trap schools / zoos / hospitals, dig up corpses to parade in front of the media, doctor photos, etc, to demonise Israel and gain sympathy for their cause.

As sub editor of Standpoint you must know what I'm talking about?

Iris: That is the most constructive sentence I have ever seen you post. Thank you, I will check it out.

You need to pay better attention, Matt.

Matt, can you see the contradiction in your post? if Hamas/Hizbollah have such hardware, what was the point of Israel's action? As for Hamas/Hizbollah's actions, all's fair in love and war, as the saying goeth. And, the first casualty of war is the truth, if we are getting into clichés.
Reading the posts here, I sometimes feel that some here would prefer Israel to be like Hamas/Hizbollah, while proclaiming the morality of the IDF. There is a certain jealousy of their actions.

I have no idea what you're talking about Joe. I was with you up to the first sentence thereafter you stopped making any sense.

Please translate into English.

Thanks.

I think it's clear enough

I find it absolutely hilarious that a couple of people who are sitting on their lilywhites a couple of thousand miles away from the sharp end are questioning the motives of whistle-blowing Israeli soldiers or the country's political leadership in time of war.

Yes that is precisely what I think. By the way, I live in Israel... Do you, joemillis? Myopic Iris? Armchair?

The testimonies of these soldiers is varied and covers the whole range of " witnessing "

As far as anyone knows, it covers the whole range of hearsay. Full stop. It means also hearsay about hearsay, hearsay about hearsay about hearsay. None of them has seen anything by themselves, except the evident horrors one can see in a war.

Jose, been there, done that, have several T-shirts.

It would greatly profit jose and Matt by reading "Matches" by Alan Kaufman.....

I wonder what a novel could prove. Maybe you also confuse novels with realities?

And, the first casualty of war is the truth, if we are getting into clichés.

But you don't have that excuse.

Reading the posts here, I sometimes feel that some here would prefer Israel to be like Hamas/Hizbollah, while proclaiming the morality of the IDF. There is a certain jealousy of their actions.

On the contrary, you prove again that your reading comprehension is very low. We all highly prefer the high morality of the IDF. We criticise the right to criticise it to those who do not do a better job, in Afghanistan for example.

Jose, been there, done that, have several T-shirts.

Maybe your reading comprehension is even lower than what I believed. Where do you live, joemillis?

Jose, if you are going to descend into ad hominems, include me out. Layla tov, Chavivi.

OK so joemillis criticise people living in Israel for criticising their compatriots who "testify" about hearsay, and criticise them for living "thousands of miles" from them. But he will not himself state where he lives...
Probably exactly thousands of miles from those of my compatriots I criticise with a reason clearly exposed here.

Jose, if you are going to descend into ad hominems

You definitely do not know what ad hominem is. I asked you three times to tell us where you live and you always answered to some other question I did not ask. That gives me the right to suspect your reading comprehension.

*smile*

*smile*

Your best comment in months!

Jose, for you edification. I live in the UK. I have my doubts that you live in Israel

Jose, for you edification. I live in the UK. I have my doubts that you live in Israel

Keep your doubts. I live in Israel, vote in Israel, and the soldiers I criticise are my compatriots, not yours. Anyone having some friends among the JC staff can check my IP and see where I connect from.

So we have someone who lives thousands of miles (last time I checked, a mile was still around 1.6km) and criticise those who live probably less than 100km from those smearing soldiers who testify about hearsay, that is to say about nothing.
Who really is making ad hominem here?

To your last question, Jose: You, if you ask.
Anyone with a little computer knowledge can proxy an IP.

Ha well " jose " they seek him in Israel, they seek him in new zealand, they seek him in south africa, they seek him in zambia those damned post zionists seek him everywhere

Ha well " jose " they seek him in Israel, they seek him in new zealand, they seek him in south africa, they seek him in zambia those damned post zionists seek him everywhere

Suzanna, the brave ones are IDf soldiers who put their lives on the line defending Israeli citizens against Islamist terrorism.