 | By Miriam Shaviv
May 10, 2010 | Share |
Our mayor, Boris Johnson, is worrying me. He writes this morning:
The whole thing is unbelievable. As I write these words, Gordon Brown is still holed up in Downing Street. He is like some illegal settler in the Sinai desert, lashing himself to the radiator...
Illegal settler in the Sinai desert? Who on earth can he be referring to - the Egyptians?
10 May, 2010 - 18:12 Rate this: 0 points | tom eisner - every settler is a fascist now? I think the Hamas members doing Nazi salutes resemble fascists rather more closely, as does the Holocaust denier of Fatah, Abbas. Apologists for the Nazis. |
11 May, 2010 - 17:54 Rate this: 0 points | Amber, I think many Israelis agree with my sentiment, |
11 May, 2010 - 22:05 Rate this: 0 points | tom eisner, the vast majority do not - and you know it. One can always find people who believe anything - I'm sure some Israelis believe in alien abductions. So what? Israel, a lone democracy in the region, is surrounded by fascist countries and entities - a fact that seems to repeatedly pass you by. |
12 May, 2010 - 00:08 Rate this: 0 points | Amber please go to the west bank and see for yourself what is going on, I honestly think you like most people would change their views. Interestingly Israelis are not allowed to go there so unfortunately they don't get to see the realities. |
12 May, 2010 - 17:36 Rate this: 0 points | tom eisner, please go to Judea and Samaria and see what is going on - the racist vilification of Jews at Palestinian schools, the antisemitic TV broadcasts by the Palestinian Authority, the oppression of women and homosexuals by Islamists, the lack of freedoms, both personal and political, the glorification of terrorism and the naming of streets and squares after murderers who targeted innocent civilians, the endemic corruption of the PA. Then you could go to Gaza and see even worse - the police state controlled with an iron fist by Hamas. |
13 May, 2010 - 04:35 Rate this: 0 points | I have been there twice,in fact last time was 3 weeks ago. I am guessing that you are writing about somewhere you have not visited yet? |
13 May, 2010 - 07:19 Rate this: 0 points | As soon as that article came out I wrote to Mayor BJ asking for an explantion of his comment quoted by Miriam, above. I have not yet had a reply. For the benefit of tomesiner2, amber responds very clearly, and is right, no-one in their right mind agrees with you tomeisner2. http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/time-for-stanley-and-all-his-lefty-friends... and http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/jnews-whats-it-all-about And yes, for your benefit tomesiner2, I have been to Gaza, Judea & Samaria, in fact I have been a regular visitor to Gaza since 1976 and have a full and thorough knowledge of the facts on the ground, I am a regular writer accross a very wide range of publications and am a public speaker on the ME situation. In case you hadn't realised, this web site is the "Jewish Chronicle", if you still insist in supporting the terrorists, why don't you post elsewhere, perhaps the Guardian is more suited to your point of view. |
13 May, 2010 - 12:40 Rate this: 0 points | Then, Tom eisner, you have no excuse for being blind. You remind me of Bernard Shaw who, after visiting the Soviet Union in the 30's, came back to the West to say that he saw no starvation, that it was a wonderful political system in which everyone was happy. This was at a time Stalin had millions in the Guag and 3 million Ukrainians were being deliberately startved to death. He saw what he wanted to see - as did you. |
13 May, 2010 - 12:55 Rate this: 0 points | Amber, the problem with the settlers - the most vocal ones, at any rate, as opposed to Israelis who moved to West Bank settlements for economic rather than religious and political reasons, is that the latter's mixture of faith and political dogma is as toxic to political plurality as anything Ahmedinijad and his ilk come up with. |
13 May, 2010 - 13:01 Rate this: 0 points | Really? |
13 May, 2010 - 15:44 Rate this: 0 points | Dan, there are always a few crazy individuals. It is somewhat different to the national government of Iran, (which sits in the UN), which openly threatens genocide. Also, last time I looked, settlers weren't gunning down protestors in the streets, raping political prisoners in jail, stoning women and homosexuals to death, as is practised in Iran. The comparison is faulty. |
13 May, 2010 - 20:50 Rate this: 0 points | "Judea and Samaria" Can you not bring yourselves (You in the plural) to use the P word? Jon-i-Cohen if I may ask nicely when did you last visit the West Bank, and if so did you speak to any non settlers? |
13 May, 2010 - 22:06 Rate this: 0 points | Tomeisner2 I live in Judea and Samaria - yes that is the correct name "West Bank" was the name given during the illegal occupation by Jordan. Obviously one can't stop you calling it what you like however that does not change reality. This area was never an Arab state called Palestine since that name was never the name of a sovereign state but a name foisted on the land by the Romans. Simply for living in Judea and Samaria you accuse me of being a fascist - prove it. I could equally call you any number of things - anti-Semite springs to mind - at least from the manner in which you post here there is a solid basis for my accusation. BTW I did not move here for economic reasons - the city where I live is part of the legal and historic Jewish Homeland it was never a "Palestinian" State and you are unable to prove it otherwise. For example if it was Palestinian as you claim why was it not such between the years 1948 -1967? As for your colleague Mr Judelson's comments Arabs are free to walk about the city where I live and they do - the same can't be said for any Jew who makes the grave mistake of entering Ramallah so whose mixture of faith and political dogma is really toxic? |
14 May, 2010 - 04:46 Rate this: 0 points | Advis3r |
14 May, 2010 - 05:54 Rate this: 0 points | Tomeisner it may interest you learn that at the end of 1967 the Jewish population of Jerusalem included 266,300 people. Since then it has grown rapidly, reaching 719,900 people at the end of 2005 – a rise of 170 percent. |
14 May, 2010 - 09:04 Rate this: 0 points | Amber, it is disingenuous to claim that the problem is confined to a few crazy individuals. Settler leaders have threatened to ignore the authority of the Israeli state on more than one occasion. In terms of threats, I described a threat to political plurality as that breadth of view is inimical to fascism, which demands absolute loyalty to the state forbidding the expression of dissent. That's true of extreme mixtures of religious and political doctrine as toxic whether they occur in the US Bible Belt, "Judea & Samaria" or Iran or anywhere else. I've walked unaccompanied and accompanied, with Jewish colleagues around Ramallah, Jenin, Nablus and several other areas of the "West Bank." Curiosity I encountered frequently, hostility never. Other Jews I know live in Ramallah, permanently or temporarily. I'm glad that Advis3r lives in a city where people walk around freely. It does beg the question though: Why should they not be? |
14 May, 2010 - 09:20 Rate this: 0 points | Oh, like I said, i think the threat from extremists is to pluralist democracy, but if you are thinking in terms of physical threats from settlers and fundamentalists, I ask you to consider the footage obtained by Ynet showing E Jerusalem settlers celebrating the murder of 29 Palestinians by Baruch Goldstein (http://jfjfp.com/?p=10829). Perhaps they were motivated by the words of Rabbi Aviner (http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3680518,00.html). Or by state support for Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, who says it is ok to kill babies because their presence assists murder (http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/11/17/israeli-rabbi-wh...). An article comparing fundamentaist terror acts can be instructive reading: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/11/12/terrorism. Simon rocker recently drew attention to fundamentalist violence in these pages - http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/someone-going-get-killed . I fervently hope that such a hideous and traumatic event never comes to pass. But let's not pretend that faith based violence is restricted to one ethnic or religious group. |
14 May, 2010 - 09:22 Rate this: 0 points | Advis3r, Have you ever stopped to think how you would feel if you had been born Palestinian and half a million foreigners moved into your country and took over? |
14 May, 2010 - 14:40 Rate this: 0 points | I have often wondered what motivates a Jew into hating themselves, their heritage, religion and nation - to a point of being totally irrational and full of hatred. It is an interesting and complex psychological condition, with differing reasons from individual to individual. Difficulty in accepting antisemitism is one of them - trying to make sense of inexplicable antisemitism by accepting its precepts. Trying to make oneself "acceptable" in the eyes of others is another. Judelson and eisner would make interesting subjects. |
14 May, 2010 - 14:41 Rate this: 0 points | tom eisner, imagine being a Jew ethnically cleansed from the Arab world, including your beloved "Palestine" (which never existed). |
14 May, 2010 - 14:56 Rate this: 0 points | So, I put some evidence, you accuse me of self-hatred, apparently because I don't agree with your analysis of the situation. That's exactly the problem I was describing. To take threadbare cover in a spurious accusation of self hatred hardly bolsters your argument. |
14 May, 2010 - 15:24 Rate this: 0 points | Tomorrow JFJFP - on whose Executive you serve Mr Judelson - is "supporting" a demonstration in London that will vilify Israel. The flier calls for Universal Jurisdiction to be unchanged; for a ban on goods produced by Jews in Judea and Samaria; for a suspension of the EU Association Agreement; and for an arms embargo. It is also organised by or suported by the PSC, BMI, ICAHD and Pax Christi. So yes - J'accuse. I accuse you and your organisation of demonising Israel and associating with those who think it is acceptable to have racists like Bongani Matsuku speak to their meetings and associating with antisemites who seek to deny Jews the right to their State. J'accuse! |
14 May, 2010 - 15:31 Rate this: 0 points |
Well put Dan, |
14 May, 2010 - 15:34 Rate this: 0 points | settlers however do the Jewish people an enormous disservice and have no right top be living in Palestine. |
14 May, 2010 - 16:15 Rate this: 0 points | Come on Tales of Hoffman it is not called Samaria it is called Palestine. can't you bring yourself to write it? |
14 May, 2010 - 16:39 Rate this: 0 points | Palestine has never existed as an idependent entity. Palestinian nationalism developed after, and as a result of, Zionism. In fact, it was invented in 1964. A myth eisner? Then explain this. The Arab population both in Judea and Samaria and Israel has grown considerably in the last decades. Meanwhile, the Jewish populations of every Arab country, such as Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Tunisia, has declined. In Iraq, not so long ago, a quarter of the population was Jewish - a QUARTER! Now not one Jew lives in the whole of Iraq. Jews lived under dhimmi apartheid in the Arab world. The Jews in Judea and Samaria before 1948 were systematicaly ehnically cleansed by the Jordanians and Palestinian Arabs to make your beloved non-existant "Palestine". Your contention that no Jew should be allowed to live in Judea and Samaria is racism, akin to the Judenrein policies of the 30's and 40's. And the fact that you hold Jews to a different standard to Arabs is also in itself racist. |
14 May, 2010 - 16:43 Rate this: 0 points | Tell the Palestinian authorities that they are the same as the Jews eisner. Then they can explain why they call Jews apes and monkeys in their school textbooks, why the killing of Jews is extolled on Palestinian TV, why murderers of innocents are venerated, their posters everywhere, and why antisemitism is endemic in Palestinian and wider Arab society. |
jose (not verified) 14 May, 2010 - 17:03 Rate this: 0 points | "Come on Tales of Hoffman it is not called Samaria it is called Palestine. can't you bring yourself to write it?" West Bank, not Palestine, has been called Judea and Samaria for more time than the muslim domination of the area. Palestine (in fact "Palestinian territories" and never an independant state) was a much greater area that included present Jordan. |
jose (not verified) 14 May, 2010 - 17:13 Rate this: 0 points | I am not sure visiting Hitler and returning with "good news" was rightly appreciated a few months later. You are the forum Chamberlain, coming with "good news" from Judea-Samaria. Well, that is not so and all what you say is only words, not facts. You suffer from delusions and not the kind of witness that can be trusted. Maybe you can listen to what an Israeli-Arab journalist say about Palestinians and PA. And he speaks only of PA, not even of Hamas ! |
jose (not verified) 14 May, 2010 - 17:30 Rate this: 0 points | tomeisner: As you know, Palestine does not exist now and has not ever existed. Then you tell us, here, that settlers (I guess that means Jews, and not Arabs) have no right to live in (whatever name you give to Judea-Samaria). Do you think Judea Samaria should be "Judenfrei"? Why so ? What is your problem with having a minority of Jews in Judea-Samaria? The fact, Mr. Tom Eisner, is that Palestinians want a total apartheid territory, while they accept the idea of being a minority in another's country. What would the world say if Israël asked its Arab citizens to move out? What kind of an uproar would we hear from you? |
14 May, 2010 - 19:56 Rate this: 0 points | Amber and Jose. I don't really see any point in continuing this dialog with you. I have been to the Palestinian west bank and you haven't. |
14 May, 2010 - 20:03 Rate this: 0 points | So what? You are denying the function of media. Plenty of well-informed people haven't been to Chechnya or Tibet but their opinions are just as valid as those who have. |
14 May, 2010 - 20:08 Rate this: 0 points | What media? The BBC, Surely you would say they are biased against Israel, I would say they are too pro Israel. My point is that you really have to see it with your own eyes to understand it. Why don't you go and then when you come back tell mew what you think... |
14 May, 2010 - 20:25 Rate this: 0 points | It's the argument of desperation, a last resort argument which denies the validity of any opinion which is not based on personal experience. I never witnessed slavery but you would not deny the validity of my opinion about it because of that. |
14 May, 2010 - 21:42 Rate this: 0 points | Ok, but I really believe Jonathan that you would be affected by seeing with your |
jose (not verified) 14 May, 2010 - 22:26 Rate this: 0 points | "Amber and Jose. I don't really see any point in continuing this dialog with you." You mean "monologue", of course. "I have been to the Palestinian west bank and you haven't." I've got eyes and you haven't. |
jose (not verified) 14 May, 2010 - 22:35 Rate this: 0 points | tomeisner: Checked your eyes, recently ? Last time I was in Jerusalem, I saw Arab families having a walk in the streets of WEST JERUSALEM, undisturbed, unchecked, peacefully. They certainly didn't fear anything as they were with small children. I saw a group of Arab children and their teacher, playing football in a park, just opposite the Knesset. |
14 May, 2010 - 22:42 Rate this: 0 points | eisner, you studiously avoid answering any of the points put to you. You keep parroting "have you been there"? Yes I have. But what if I hadn't? Does this make what I say invalid? As Jonathan points out - are you saying you can only have an opinion about world events if you have been to the plac ein question? Been to Iraq lately? Bet you have big opinions on it though. How silly. Try answering the points put to you - it's called dialogue/discussion. |
14 May, 2010 - 22:43 Rate this: 0 points | eisner, in a previous blog, you spoke incredulously of Islamic and Palestinian antisemitism. Check this out: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/douglasmurray/100039763/islamic-jew-ha... |
jose (not verified) 14 May, 2010 - 22:44 Rate this: 0 points | "Jose, you expose eisner's hypocrisy very well." Thanks! Same for you. Probably an artist-like idealist who sees only what he wants to see, not necesarily a hypocrit. |
jose (not verified) 15 May, 2010 - 19:41 Rate this: 0 points | I suggest everyone look at this video and check if this corresponds really with what tomeisner chants us here: Be sure to take a paper bag first and keep it close, while watching. |
15 May, 2010 - 20:00 Rate this: 0 points | http://cifwatch.com/2010/05/13/muslim-student-supports-gathering-jews-in... Look how her teacher tried to explain away what she said... |
jose (not verified) 15 May, 2010 - 20:11 Rate this: 0 points | Her teacher is right: she was manipulated by Horowitz who won the show. She was manipulated to force her saying what she really thinks, instead of the usual propaganda for Western media. |
16 May, 2010 - 08:12 Rate this: 0 points | Jose wrote" Last time I was in Jerusalem, I saw Arab families having a walk in the streets of WEST JERUSALEM, undisturbed, unchecked, peacefully. They certainly didn't fear anything as they were with small children. I saw a group of Arab children and their teacher, playing football in a park, just opposite the Knesset. Yes the "arabs" you saw are the lucky ones who are allowed to have the Jerusalem identity card. Most of the Palestinians less than half a mile away on the west bank are not allowed to go any where near Jerusalem because they have west bank i.d. So you get a situation where families have become divided as once you give up your Jerusalem i.d. you never get it back and obviously having children for Palestinians is now becoming a real dilemma since if you leave for the west bank to live in more space it is goodbye for ever to Jerusalem. If only it were that simple but it isn't. Palestinians are heavily discriminated against in East Jerusalem and the plan is to eventually have a undivided Jerusalem free of them. As soon as they do any building work on their houses Israeli authorities force them to leave, I witnessed this, whereas the Israeli settlers who move into the area are given every encouragement to go about their unlawful business. Indeed I spotted sevral settlers on the via Dolorosa with armed vigilantes threatingly patrolling the area.These were not Israeli soldiers but boys in their early 20s wearing t shirts with revolvers around their waists.So there are now plenty of Jews in East Jerusalem! Perhaps the scariest thing I saw was a 10 foot golden Menorah in a glass case opposite the wailing wall with an inscription saying that they were looking forward to the day when they could "rebuild the temple" The problem is that the Al Aqsa mosque is on that site. For several years the Israelis have been tunneling under this ancient place of worship citing archaeological reasons. The foundations of the Mosque are gradually being destroyed, a nearby school has already collapsed and before long this ancient building will undoubtedly also suffer, what will happen then? |
16 May, 2010 - 09:12 Rate this: 0 points | "Palestinians are heavily discriminated against in East Jerusalem and the plan is to eventually have a undivided Jerusalem free of them" Mendacious drivel from Eisner In 1967 there 66,000 Palestinians in East Jerusalem In 2006, 229,004 Muslims and 13,638 Christians. The Palestinian population of east Jerusalm is rising stongly - not falling |
16 May, 2010 - 14:59 Rate this: 0 points | eisner, talking to himself again. Answer the points put to you eisner (about Palestinian antisemitism and racism)- if you can. |
tomeisner2
10 May, 2010 - 17:53
Rate this:
His geography is slightly wrong. He obviously meant the illegal Israeli settlers in Palestine(west Bank)
Quite an insult to Gordon Brown don't you think, I mean Gordie is not a fascist, unlike the settlers.