A New Palestinian Lie About Israel: The Rahma Hoax

But some Israeli officers do a better job (and they at least were at Bil'in):

Other IDF officers also found it hard to believe that Abu Rahma did not actually attend Friday's protest but noted that it was indeed possible that the victim's death was caused by a medical condition from which she suffered.
"In any case, it's best to wait until the Palestinians provide all the material and check it together with information from other sources and then form an accurate assessment which is not based on emotions and sensations."

That's what happens when some people rush to plant stories in a gullible media

And before anyone starts, I think it is a credit to Israel that, despite everything, it has army officers who are not willing to bury their heads in the sand and are brave enough to shout out: "Hang on a minute" when they sense an injustice or an inaccuracy. This is what makes Israel great and what shows up all the anti-Zionists.

Mr Hoffman, the link does not work.
Thanks Joe Millis for a sensible attempt at an even-handed view, albeit from a liberal zionist perspective. Forgive me Joe if you disagree with my categorisation of you.
Then there is Haa'retz, certainly the most authoratative
journalistic voice to come out of Israel which states unreservedly, and with the full weight of editorial comment, that the unfortunate woman was at the demonstration and choked on the gas fired by the IDF, and that the Israeli government were in any case trying to enforce an illegal land grab. Haa'retz do not take risks with their invaluable reputation, we can be certain that they are confident of their facts
The other view is presented by some bloke in London, Yoni Hoffman, who is convinced that his zionerd blogger mates have got it right, and that it is all a conspiracy against the IDF.

Then there is Haa'retz, certainly the most authoratative
journalistic voice to come out of Israel

Haaretz is the worst rag in Israel but sometimes they get real stories such as:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-family-sends-m...

proving that such a behaviour is not so unbelievable. Since the Al Durah hoax, it is known that 'Palestinians martyr' fabrication industry is a prosperous one.

Milligramsam did not yet understand who is the most gullible person here: the one that believes a democratic country narrative, or the one who believes proven liars such as the 'Palestinian' propaganda.

Remember the Al Durah hoax, Milligramsam? and much more recently:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-family-sends-m...

Yes, 'Palestinians' can force their mentally ill son to his death if they can benefit from it by accusing IDF.

The link works now

Haaretz....." Israel has lost the battle to persuade the world it didn't kill Abu Rahma"

You're looking as sick as a parrot Yonithan

AGAIN

Haaretz....." Israel has lost the battle to persuade the world it didn't kill Abu Rahma"

No one reads that rag anyway. They did not even write an update when the Al Durah affair concluded with the victory of the defendant, revealing the hoax.

Interesting sentence anyway: it does not says "Israel killed Abu Rahma" but that the world (based on what poll?) believes it. Well, that is not exactly the same thing as stating the reality of 'Palestinian' hoaxes.
Remember also that Haaretz revealed that some 'Palestinians' wanted their mentally-ill boy to be killed by IDF:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-family-sends-m...

The anonymous sh** QuarterBrain cites the headline of the article which was not written by the author and does not represent the article properly. Quel surprise.

More representative headline:

Israel has succeeded in persuading the world that Palestinian claims that the IDF killed Rahma are nonsense

Here are extracts from the Ha'aretz piece:

According to testimonies from villagers and demonstrators, Abu Rahmah was hurt by the gas. However, it's reasonable to assume that this wasn't the sole cause of death. She had some health problem that caused headaches and dizziness, and stained her skin, but in the medical documents this is not described as the cause of death.

....if it was the gas that killed her, as was claimed, one would have expected that others near her would have also suffered injury.

The use of tear gas does not constitute excessive force. The Palestinians view the struggle against the fence as symbolizing a "popular intifada" that is not violent. But the moment stones are thrown and efforts are made to destroy the fence, the police and soldiers need to take action to stop the demonstration.

The Palestinians are looking for a symbol. There is no doubt they are trying to leverage the incident for their needs. Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who was in Brazil, was quick to condemn the IDF for the killing of Abu Rahmah, as did other senior Palestinian figures.

Who is Yonithan, Wheelchair?

Yes Ha'aretz .... the newspaper whose then Editor told Condoleezza Rice that Israel needed to be “raped” by the US ....

http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2007/12/david-landau-supports-rape.html

He's now the Israel Editor of The Economist which explains the stream of bile from that once much respected magazine.....

"She had some health problem that caused headaches and dizziness, and stained her skin"

WTF was such a person doing standing next to violent demonstraters anyway (as alleged by some)?

How stupid can you get ...

Jonathan, forget Haaretz. Ynet, which is owned by Judy Nir-Mozes-Shalom, the wife of Israel's deputy Prime Minister, Silvan Shalom, has already quoted Israeli officers who were at Bil'in who rejected the story planted on Channel 10 News/NaNa that she wasn't there.

It is good that Mr Hoffman is now grudgingly dealing with the realities, but I would remind him that this thread is still headed "A new Palestinian lie about Israel" when in fact we are dealing with a Zionist lie about a tragic death, and Mr Hoffman did his best to perpetrate it.
The doctors say that the woman had chronic breathing problems after the gassing, and this brought on a heart attack. That was what was said at the outlet before all the "cancer" rubbish, and it is now accepted as the truth, all the papers, even Arutz Sheva, have now dropped the IDF version.
People in any civilised country should be able to peacefully demonstrate without being gassed and killed, (21 have died at Bil'in, and it is admitted that the demonstration was noisy, but peaceful) Don't forget, it is Israel that is in the wrong. As Haaretz (and Ynet)has shown, the government are attempting land theft by failing to comply with a court order. The people have a right to demonstrate against the occupation and land theft.

Milligramsam quoted:

Other IDF officers also found it hard to believe that Abu Rahma did not actually attend Friday's protest

They didn't say she was. And who cares what some find hard to believe when witnesses saw her in her house?

There is Haaretz and then, there is Milligramsam's interpretation of what he reads. Usually on the level of a 10-year-old comprehension.

Waterdrop:

People in any civilised country should be able to peacefully demonstrate

In what civilised country trhowing stones is called "peaceful"?

The doctors say that the woman had chronic breathing problems after the gassing

The doctors who did not even care to send the medical records to Israel and who put the cause of death as stated by the family?

The most ridiculous thing about these Bilin riots is that Israel Supreme Court has already asked to change the wall's location. So that these riots have no meaning at all.
On the contrary, they prove that whatever happens, rioters will continue to attack Israel.

No, Jez, it's not a "Zionist lie". It's a planted story by certain elements in Israel who claim to be super-Zionist but are just really a bunch of ultra-nationalists. The true Zionists here are those Israeli officers who stood up against those who rushed to plant a story on Channel 10/NaNa.

"Then there is Haa'retz, certainly the most authoratative journalistic voice to come out of Israel"

ROFL. Jezz is as stupid and ignorant as he is screechningly antisemitic.
It used to be a serious paper. It is now yellow journalism at its worst, a bile-spewing, Israel-hating, lying propaganda sheet like Guardian and Independent.

"The doctors say that the woman had chronic breathing problems after the gassing"

You don't know what 'chronic' means, do you, potato-head?

Milligramsam:

It's a planted story by certain elements in Israel who claim to be super-Zionist but are just really a bunch of ultra-nationalists.

What proof do you have about that claim of yours? Did you plant that story yourself? Does that prove that fairy tales are true? Do you have another case of tear gas provoking death in an open area?

Ooops! I forgot that you don't answer to those who don't put their resume in their pseudo.

Mr Hoffman,
You always allow your fanaticism to cloud your judgement. I did warn you in an earlier post that this story would come back to bite you. Here is what I said on your blog on 3rd Jan
"Ha'aretz are playing this story very differently probably because they have guessed the likely final outcome, and don't want to have to eat humble pie. There's a lesson for you there Mr. Hoffman.
This story will return to haunt you."

"Return to haunt you", and so it has

WAITER, ANOTHER SLICE OF HUMBLE PIE FOR MR. HOFFMAN

OK

what do know or can reasonably assume from the limited evidence

she was at the demo

she inhaled tear gas

she died

now it can reasonably be conjectured that there was some relationship between these facts

While not claiming this as exactly how it was its very very feasible...that

she had some pre existing condition, inhaled tear gas and the two things together precipitated her death. It is almost certainly the case that a fully healthy person would not have died from the tear gas inhilationitself. But she had every right to be there.

I have attended the regular Bil'in demo maybe half a dozen times. It is for the most part peaceful. Usually some kids throw a few stones which mostly land at least 100 metres short of their target.

The Bil'in demo is as righteous as righteous gets. Even the normally compliant Israeli supreme court has ruled three whole years ago that the fence there is not about security but is a blatant land grab and ordered it's diversion. The army just laughs at the court and ignores it leading some to opine that Israel is not governed by the rule of law but by a kind of military junta

This is Bil'in.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQyIKyd2gqA&feature=player_detailpage

"now it can reasonably be conjectured that there was some relationship between these facts"

Moron.

Here is a syllogism for you:

1. The sun was shining today.

2. You are a Israel-hating moron.

Ergo:

3. There is a relationship between 1. and 2.

This makes about as much sense as your stupid 'conjecture'.

Anyone know what drivel Jez is spewing this time?

Jezza has been asked to supply the name of a single healthy person who has died of tear gas.

He cannot.

To disguise his humiliation he is ranting away up there. Just leave him alone. He will burn out sooner or later.

Mr Hoffman, do you really not understand? The indiscriminate use of CS gas, as in this case, can kill vulnerable people. The healthy will survive. I know you do not care about the death of this woman. In an earlier posting you expressed this inhumane sentiment.
"What on earth was she doing at a demo? If she died from the gas, she is to blame."
Is it because she was a Palestinian Mr Hoffman, a lesser breed not deserving of a homeland, of human rights, even of life? Shame on you.
You never deal vith the Haaretz point, that the demonstrations are justified, and that it is the land theft of Israel, in defiance of Supreme court decisions that is the root of the problem. In a nutshell, it is the occupation.
Your bogus story that the death was a hoax etc is now in tatters, even the most bigoted journals have backed off. Perhaps it is time to reflect on what Mark Twain said, that it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Watermaut the crap. You just hate Israel and Jews.

Waterman, cut the crap. You just hate Israel and Jews.

she was at the demo
she inhaled tear gas
she died

So we can say that her mother is a liar since she said they weren't at the riot (not demo, btw).
Maybe she inhaled tear gas, but in insignificant quantity and in open area.
She probably died but not of tear gas as there is no evidence whatsoever.
She had also another pathology, from which she most probably died.

Btw, let's speak about what is not said in the papers. It is not said that she had a husband or children. Isn't that curious? If she had, I'm sure some bleeding heart would have said how many orphans she left.
So, at 36, she was unmarried and had no children, something quite unusual in the 'conservative' (to say the least) Arab society.
Isn't it logical then to suppose she has big health troubles that would explain her status? More to be discovered soon, I'm sure!

Posner you are quite simply disgusting

UGH

Mr Hoffman

You say:

"Jezza has been asked to supply the name of a single healthy person who has died of tear gas.
He cannot."

Have a look at the article below.

Scroll down to: "Palestinian Victims Sue Tear Gas Manufacturer" and you'll see the following bit of information: "Amnesty International has reported 40 deaths from CS tear gas inhalation alone from December 1987 to June 1988."

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0392/9203069.html

I would like to thank the brave Israeli reporter Lisa Goldman (who was an eyewitness to events at the demo and was gassed herself) for this valuable piece of information.

And here is a piece by Amnesty about at least 10 deaths caused in one incident by police use of tear gas in another bastion of free speech, Zimbabwe:

http://www.kubatana.net/html/archive/hr/040922ai.asp?sector=AGRIC&year=2...

And a related piece on the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4610809.stm

So Jonathan, in the light of all this information you might want to rethink your position on this matter. If, that is, facts influence you in any way.

Recap: Dover is a signatory of JFJFP and IJV. he supports the Goldstone Report and the Methodists' antisemitic and supercessionist motion passed at their Congress.

None of the articles he cites goes anywhere near confirming that a healthy person can be killed by tear gas in an open area where wind is blowing, as was the case at Beilin on 31 December.

Another good article on the Rahma Hoax is here:

http://cifwatch.com/2011/01/05/the-abu-rahma-hoax-pt-3-does-this-palesti...

"...to note that the current Palestinian claims lack credibility is a profound understatement."

You are now pretty alone, even amongst the craziest of right wingers, in pushing this hoax line.

You mention my support for the work of Judge Goldstone.

Goldstone did a greater service to the Jewish people and the state of Israel with his report than anything you could dream of achieving in your lifetime Mr Hoffman.
He is a shining example of a man, a Jew, and a Zionist. He was not afraid to be a human before being a Jew, and he did not let his identity cloud his clear sense of what is right and wrong, with balance and reason based always on evidence and careful judicial process.
He let his humanity serve truth and justice, and it is only through truth, reconciliation, justice and a just peace for all that the state of Israel can ever truly prosper and exist in safety. That's what being a true friend to Israel is about.

You and your friends here could learn a great deal from him.

dover, Goldtone did a great service? What, by lying? His casualty figures have been proven to be garbage, whilst he ignored and omitted the testimony of Israelis living under the rocket barrages. Several co-authors also admitted their prejudices against the Jews even before the "investigation" began.

You have no credibility with your obvious agenda- just like the Goldstone debacle.

Seems that Lisa Goldman - whom Dover calls a "brave Israeli reporter" - is, like him, not averse to slinging ad hominems when she is losing the argument:

http://twitter.com/lisang/status/23065338669170688

Well, Jonathan, at least she lives in Israel and speaks of what she knows.

Thank G-d Amber is back. I was forgetting which of you are haters, baiters, and/or scumbags.

iris, surely you can remember it's you?

"Goldstone did a greater service to the Jewish people and the state of Israel"

Goldstone lied, you pathetic moron.

'Goldstone did a greater service to the Jewish people and the state of Israel with his report than anything you could dream of achieving in your lifetime Mr Hoffman.'

In a sense, I agree. It demonstrated to Israel the techniques of the enemy, so that Israel can better address or circumvent them, next time. Be even more careful, in other words, and according to former NATO commander Afghanistan, Kemp, she was pretty careful.

Likewise former Irish Guards Captain, Tim Collins, who thought Falujah was worse. He couldn't say the IDF had behaved especially evilly:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8470100.stm

This is urban warfare, Aaron. So long as Hamas, or Hizbullah, is dedicated to eternal jihad until Israel's extinction, more of the same, I'm afraid. And Israel will make sure she suffers minimal casualties.

And while you and/or your fellow BDSers seek the end of Zionism or the Jewish state, as does PSC, Tony Greenstein, Ben White etc, Israeli Jews are going to act less like privately educated HGS (barely) Jewish schoolboys and more like Israeli Jews, who think they are at least as Palestinian as the Palestinians, and know perfectly well that they, as Jews, have been unwelcome for at least a hundred years, with no real sign of your charges substantially changing that.

You might enjoy this interview with the F-16 pilot who bombed Saleh Shehadeh in 2004:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-pilot-describes-good-s...

I'm sorry if I'm not intelligent enough to converse with you, Aaron. But I know what I know, just like you.

And I agree, I think Goldstone did do Israel a favour, for the reasons above. And I think he expressed regret for the use to which the highly partial, and often inaccurate, information was put e.g. one would never have known that 700 of the dead were Hamas personnel, and that many of the 'children' were combatants too. That only came out 2 years later.

Cast Lead was an excellently executed exercise in urban warfare. All Hamas has to do is renounce, or at least no press, eternal jihad. Express willingness to come to a permanent peace.

The trouble is, it sees useful/useless idiots, not you necessarily, but certainly some of your friends, and it figures, if it just holds out a bit longer, then it will get all it wants.

The trouble with that reasoning, is that it assumes Israel will be merciful or generous.

It's a gamble.

* It's a gamble.

With the lives of the people of Gaza.

The useful idiots have lost the propaganda war. They convince only the convinced in advance.

The indiscriminate use of CS gas, as in this case, can kill vulnerable people.

Give an example of someone killed by tear gas in an open area.
Remember you failed to give a single example, Waterdrop?

Goldstone served his carreer. He is no more a Zionist than his apologist aarondover or whatever his real name is. He accepted the lies that his master the UN HRC told him to accept. These lies were now denied by HAMAS itself.
Goldstone is an ambitious liar. Even the HAMAS was forced to admit the truth. Will Goldstone?

Posner you are quite simply disgusting

Where is Posner, Wheelchair? Again this ghost haunts you?

So you have a 36 year old ill with a grave illness that nobody knows about and far from any cloud of tear gas, she suddenly dies...
What a blood libel case you have there, Wheelchair!